The defend on line position.

[thilio]

could you give me one example of where he EXACTLY issued these orders during battle and when they were EXACTLY carried out as he ordered them to!
why did he fail to achieve total victory in some battles? - because his famous storming marechals weren't there...and he just couldn't order and conduct assaults as he would have been able to with them making all the smaller decisions!

CvC

In the 1815 campaign which is relatively well documented (see topic on Waterloo), issued orders were extremely detailed in terms of units and map location. This refers to the initial part of prepared battles, not to unexpected battle (Eylau) or second time orders.
I believe the birthday was wished 

[Count von Csollich]

In the 1815 campaign which is relatively well documented (see topic on Waterloo), issued orders were extremely detailed in terms of units and map location. This refers to the initial part of prepared battles, not to unexpected battle (Eylau) or second time orders.
I believe the birthday was wished 

are you talking about the movement at Charleroi?

CvC

[thilio]

For what i have read, probably not a lot has i'm only an "amateur" of history, orders for Ligny and Waterloo were very detailed.
This is also true for the other side, for example Wellington issued precise orders to hold Hougoumont, giving almost the exact number of guards to be placed in the castle.

[Count von Csollich]

I believe the birthday was wished 

yeah, all of you were very kind, however I believe that these late birthday wishes of ajs above had some other intentions as well - but isn't that obvious anyway?   (gosh, I am so very young... )

CvC

to sum it up - I do agree that some influence on the defensive line would be great...sometime in the future - not only for strength and disposition but also for where to form a local reserve - HOWEVER such things would work much better with divisional and brigade AI - which has yet to come! - it works well at BftB - I am sure it will work at LG even better!

[Count von Csollich]

For what i have read, probably not a lot has i'm only an "amateur" of history, orders for Ligny and Waterloo were very detailed.
This is also true for the other side, for example Wellington issued precise orders to hold Hougoumont, giving almost the exact number of guards to be placed in the castle.

I totally agree - WELLINGTON!!!! - he didn't even allow for actually acting corps commanders - because he wanted to command everything for himself - he was one micromanager - which is why he rode at least 6 horses until they were blown, and only divisional commanders were allowed to interfere! - this also meant that if he wasn't present larger maneuvers such as attacks were impossible to be conducted! -

but you are right Thilio...Wellington issued very precise orders!  

CvC

[thilio]

yeah, all of you were very kind, however I believe that these late birthday wishes of ajs above had some other intentions as well - but isn't that obvious anyway?   (gosh, I am so very young... )

Of course...

What would be great is to have the possibility to give pecise orders for defense like it is possible for deploy, etc...in which the line location is very precise.  To my opinion, this is not micromanaging.
However, the corps commander can adapt the order depending on the  situation he found at the moment, the ennemy pressure, the units available,...

[Hook]

I very seldom issue a defensive line order that requires a corp to advance.  I'll do it during the initial deployment phase, but seldom after that. 

If your corps has to advance and possibly contact the enemy, you should be issuing a deploy order.  If they don't contact the enemy during the march, they'll form up in defensive line on their own if the enemy gets close enough after they've reached their position.  If you're dealing with order delays, then issue a defensive line order at the same time you issue the deploy order to be executed after they reach their position.  This was all discussed very early on the forums.

If you're issuing a defensive line order and the corps contacts the enemy before reaching the destination, even if it's a few hundred meters ahead of where you drew the line, then you're issuing the order too close to the enemy.  Yeah, I made that mistake myself a couple of times in the early days.  I quickly learned not to make that mistake.

Hook

[ess1]

I entirely agree with the word "EXACTLY". However, I was an Officer in the the British Army throughout the 1970's, mostly with BAOR in Germany. The orders I gave better have been carried out pretty close to their original intent, or I wouldn't have lasted long, heads would have rolled including mine

Anyhow, with that, I bow out of the subject. To my disappointment I have found that a different opinion is often not appreciated by some and I have had enough of that, so off I go to fight more battles

I served with an Ordnance Field Park (part of the "Fly-out Bde") in Kenya during the 60s.   When we were on excercise in bush  we somehow found ourselves in front of an Infantry unit whose task was support.   All hell broke loose with umpires going mad, coloured smk swirling around...   Our OC lost his command and we had to undergo two Annual Inspections  in the field, all cammed up etc

[Count von Csollich]

I served with an Ordnance Field Park (part of the "Fly-out Bde") in Kenya during the 60s.   When we were on excercise in bush  we somehow found ourselves in front of an Infantry unit whose task was support.   All hell broke loose with umpires going mad, coloured smk swirling around...   Our OC lost his command and we had to undergo two Annual Inspections  in the field, all cammed up etc

now THAT sounds like reality

CvC

[ess1]

now THAT sounds like reality

CvC

Happy days...

[AJ]

All hell broke loose with umpires going mad, coloured smk swirling around...   Our OC lost his command and we had to undergo two Annual Inspections  in the field, all cammed up etc

Actually, Ess1 will correct me if I'm wrong, his example is meant to supporting my point. in the British Army this type of thing does not happen very often, otherwise there would be no Officers left! Notice the OC lost his command!!!!!

[Count von Csollich]

a little off the "defend" topic, but something similar to your story ess1: - just to point out the chaos on the field....

it was one of Austria's  anual exercices ....my team was part of a small group of elite units holding a key position in the centre (was rather unusual for us, to be used as a "line" unit...) - three hours into the exercise the three companies on our right had moved to far forward and had established defensive line one hill to much forward....meaning they were unable to cover our flank effectively....

on our left the "Oberstleutnant" = Lieutenant-Colonel commanding the units there was kind of lost....didn't see even obvious enemy positions and was thus soundly defeated...

we were last to hold on, used the high-mountain terrain effectively, our two scout snipers of my group took out entire platoons....we lost badly nevertheless ....I was "killed" in the third attack, 5 hours into the defence - shot in the back, as we were being flanked and attacked from the rear.....being replaced by my second in command.....we were informed that we were finally taken out by our OWN artillery (in this case 12cm heavy mortars, which had fired on the wrong target....(we had requested fire support on an assembly area of the enemy, preparing to attack us...

so much for "what you would like a battle to work" and "how it really turns out"

CvC

(in the next international training, JgdKdo performed the way it should have, WINNING )

[Count von Csollich]

Actually, Ess1 will correct me if I'm wrong, his example is meant to supporting my point. in the British Army this type of thing does not happen very often, otherwise there would be no Officers left! Notice the OC lost his command!!!!!

what exactly do you mean: "does not happen very often" - I am rather lost, what we are discussing right here...

the way I understood it: the unit was lost, all got into chaos....the OC lost his command as he performed terribly...no? and it had to perform some nice little additional exercise due to this fail!....no?

CvC

[AJ]

I think I'm lost too!!!!  I declare a "Truce" before we all lose our heads

[Count von Csollich]

I think I'm lost too!!!!  I declare a "Truce" before we all lose our heads

this wasn't to start a fight, you know? - I was just lost on what we were posting here

CvC