The defend on line position.

[Count von Csollich]

Gunner, to me that's just micro managing every little thing, perhaps if your army commander went over to the Corps to oversee the defensive line then fair one, but as far as I'm concerned it should be left alone, because people don't always do what you want them too.

you give an order of roughly where you want you subordinate to defend then it down to them and a bit of luck.

I can but agree! - having issued enough orders in real life to real soldiers, well let's just say, that you're happy if 50% of them get carried out EXACTLY how you want them to be executed..............................  and the instance I've written that.........well even that number is totally ridiculous....

CvC

[AJ]

Gunner, to me that's just micro managing every little thing

Mate, if placing your defense line on a "Reverse Slope" is micromanagement, then Wellington must have been "Micromanaging" a helluva lot
All I want is for my defense line to be in the approximate area of the command, not exact, as I realize the adjustment for line of sight, topography etc...the ability to see it's final deployment would help that. In fact Defense orders given in initial deployment are shown so why not show them when given after initial deployment.
 I was just doing an initial deployment in a battle test for Alfiere and AI kept on placing the actual deployment over 1K from the given "Reverse Slope" line.

I can but agree! - having issued enough orders in real life to real soldiers, well let's just say, that you're happy if 50% of them get carried out EXACTLY how you want them to be executed.

I entirely agree with the word "EXACTLY". However, I was an Officer in the the British Army throughout the 1970's, mostly with BAOR in Germany. The orders I gave better have been carried out pretty close to their original intent, or I wouldn't have lasted long, heads would have rolled including mine

Anyhow, with that, I bow out of the subject. To my disappointment I have found that a different opinion is often not appreciated by some and I have had enough of that, so off I go to fight more battles

[Hook]

One problem I noticed and reported some time ago is that if you issue a defensive line order in the initial deployment phase, and the troops immediately jump to their positions, the lines on the map will jump forward, sometimes quite a bit.  The troops may or may not actually be where the lines and troop icons are shown, especially artillery, which actually deploys well behind the icon on the map.  If you issue the same defensive line order after the clock has started running, you get something closer to what you originally ordered.  It's a nasty little problem that I haven't seen in a while because I make sure a defensive line during initial deployment is far enough away from the original location that the troops have to move there in real time rather than jumping.  This may have been fixed.

Occasionally in very broken ground the troops do indeed defend in considerable depth.  I haven't noticed this being a problem, as broken ground is suitable for defending in depth.

As for troops doing EXACTLY what you want...  "Lieutenant, you have a sergeant and 10 men to erect a flagpole in front of the battalion HQ.  What are your orders?"

Hook

[thilio]

I agree with Aj that ordering defensive line may be problematic. If you want to include a town in your defensive line, AI should follow your orders and not set the line 500m forward!
Furthermore, as Hook wrote, there are some issues with the 2D representation of the defensive line. It is difficult to know exactly where the unit is vs the blue arrow and also sometimes very difficult to select it on the map.
Maybe some  graphic improvement for defense line on 2D will help.

[Gunner24]

Thanks for the comments.

It seems the subject has been covered from both points of view, those that want the Corps to do as there told, and those that don't.

I think the AI has a big enough part to play in this game without letting it deciede where you want to defend.  It seems very reasonable to have them defend on the line you order, rather than a line not where you order.......maybe if....................the Regiments could be made to stop and form defensive lines no more than 100/200 yards away from where ordered would be helpfull.

[Count von Csollich]

One problem I noticed and reported some time ago is that if you issue a defensive line order in the initial deployment phase, and the troops immediately jump to their positions, the lines on the map will jump forward, sometimes quite a bit.  The troops may or may not actually be where the lines and troop icons are shown, especially artillery, which actually deploys well behind the icon on the map.  If you issue the same defensive line order after the clock has started running, you get something closer to what you originally ordered.  It's a nasty little problem that I haven't seen in a while because I make sure a defensive line during initial deployment is far enough away from the original location that the troops have to move there in real time rather than jumping.  This may have been fixed.

right, I saw that too very often, this is a big problem, as it basically means that your entire artillery is disabled, as it won't move to the indicated position, is unresponsive and thus out of action for the entire time the corps remains in defensive line!

As for troops doing EXACTLY what you want...  "Lieutenant, you have a sergeant and 10 men to erect a flagpole in front of the battalion HQ.  What are your orders?"

     - this is what I tried to say...thanks for making this point clear, god knows how often I have yelled at a poor recruit to get his ass over this wall EXACTLY how he was told to...and guess what, he broke his wrist, because he couldn't listen....you would think that if someone is accepted for service in the special forces, that his coordination and fitness abilities would be "outstanding", but that doesn't mean that he doesn't  have a total brain freeze like  a "normal/average" soldier!

to get the most realism out of the game, there should be a difference between being in command of the army or just of ONE corps:

- meaning: if you are CinC of your army, you simply don't have time to care of where exactly one of your corps commanders is setting up his defensive line...you simply give the order: hold the village, delay the enemy, break through the centre...whatever....but you would never issue a written order saying: I want you to position the 2nd and 3rd bataillon behind that hill and a battery of 6-pounders in support....and behind that the Vincent-Chevau-legers deployed in line under the command of.........you simply don't have the time for that....which means in game-terms, playing as the CinC you should leave these decision over to the AI and trust it like it was one of your trusted Corps commanders.....

if you are playing as the commander of a single corps however, you should have more influence on where to form your line, as we have now IMO, as the Corps commander issued his orders not only to divisions and brigades, but sometimes also influenced the deployment of single units...anyway you can always change that with micromanaging at the moment, when only in command of a single corps!

CvC

[Hook]

It seems the subject has been covered from both points of view, those that want the Corps to do as there told, and those that don't.

Excuse please.  It's not that we don't want the corps to do as they're told.  It's that we want the corps to act properly in a reasonably autonomous manner when we have order delays of over an hour.  If I have mistakenly ordered a corps to deploy in defensive line within 1000 meters of the enemy, I expect the corps commander to work it out. 

I think the AI has a big enough part to play in this game without letting it deciede where you want to defend.

The AI can usually read the ground better than you can, especially if the map elevations aren't detailed enough, which can happen occasionally.  The AI will seek out the best positions, which is exactly what you want it to do.

Currently it will not deploy on reverse slope.  That will be part of the British AI when it's implemented.

the Regiments could be made to stop and form defensive lines no more than 100/200 yards away from where ordered would be helpfull.

That's what JMM meant in his post above where he suggested a depth of line.

Hook

[Casus Bellus]

" if you are CinC of your army, you simply don't have time to care of where exactly one of your corps commanders is setting up his defensive line...you simply give the order: hold the village, delay the enemy, break through the centre...whatever....but you would never issue a written order saying: I want you to position the 2nd and 3rd bataillon behind that hill and a battery of 6-pounders in support....and behind that the Vincent-Chevau-legers deployed in line under the command of.........you simply don't have the time for that....which means in game-terms, playing as the CinC you should leave these decision over to the AI and trust it like it was one of your trusted Corps commanders....."

But Napoleaon was famous for giving just these kind of detailed orders, wasn't he? Didn't he spend hours scouting out artillery positions and planning the movements of his units down to the minutest details?

[thilio]

But Napoleaon was famous for giving just these kind of detailed orders, wasn't he? Didn't he spend hours scouting out artillery positions and planning the movements of his units down to the minutest details?

Totally agree, it is exactly what I was upon to wrote 

[Count von Csollich]

" if you are CinC of your army, you simply don't have time to care of where exactly one of your corps commanders is setting up his defensive line...you simply give the order: hold the village, delay the enemy, break through the centre...whatever....but you would never issue a written order saying: I want you to position the 2nd and 3rd bataillon behind that hill and a battery of 6-pounders in support....and behind that the Vincent-Chevau-legers deployed in line under the command of.........you simply don't have the time for that....which means in game-terms, playing as the CinC you should leave these decision over to the AI and trust it like it was one of your trusted Corps commanders....."

But Napoleaon was famous for giving just these kind of detailed orders, wasn't he? Didn't he spend hours scouting out artillery positions and planning the movements of his units down to the minutest details?

Totally agree, it is exactly what I was upon to wrote  

could you give me one example of where he EXACTLY issued these orders during battle and when they were EXACTLY carried out as he ordered them to!
...did he order the 3rd ligne to hold Tellnitz the way they did? - did he order the 1/14th ligne to attack Prazten village and be routed the way they were?
- did all the allied army commanders do just that?
- did Napoleon issue exact orders to Lannes, when his marechal was alone at Friedland before reinforcements arrived? - did Napoleon issue orders to Ney at Iena on how and when to attack with which units?

why did he fail to achieve total victory in some battles? - because his famous storming marechals weren't there...and he just couldn't order and conduct assaults as he would have been able to with them making all the smaller decisions!

CvC

[AJ]

Anyhow, with that, I bow out of the subject. To my disappointment I have found that a different opinion is often not appreciated by some and I have had enough of that, so off I go to fight more battles   

Did forget however to wish CvC happy 22nd Birthday Thilio, Casus etc.. please make allowances for youthfull exuberance, after all these young men, although just begining their journey in the World, are our future.

[Count von Csollich]

Did forget however to wish CvC happy 22nd Birthday Thilio, Casus etc.. please make allowances for youthfull exuberance, after all these young men, although just begining their journey in the World, are our future.

thanks very much aj, how very kind!  
- however having read several books each month  since I was 8, and none of them ever concerned any other topic than either history or warfare, and my two grandfathers and mother, all being professors for either history, military warfare or archeology at university, also have a great interest in teaching me in their areas of expertise (which is also the Napoleonics!),  I do think that my statements have quite some knowledge behind them -

 although of course, I do have to admit that   I lack the experience of several decades, you have aj!

CvC

[Gunner24]

especially if the map elevations aren't detailed enough, which can happen occasionally.  The AI will seek out the best positions, which is exactly what you want it to do.

This is one of the many things I like so much about LG, but,,,,,,,,,,if they find these best positions and head off to take them up, without the enemy being right in front of them, all well and good, but if they continue to head to these postions even when the enemy is "in their face" then that is not so good !.  To keep on marching to the defensive line position (which can be a long way in front of where you expected) even when trying to march though an enemy formation to reach it - well, that does not seem correct to me.

Anyway, never mind, we can live with it.

[Count von Csollich]

This is one of the many things I like so much about LG, but,,,,,,,,,,if they find these best positions and head off to take them up, without the enemy being right in front of them, all well and good, but if they continue to head to these postions even when the enemy is "in their face" then that is not so good !.  To keep on marching to the defensive line position (which can be a long way in front of where you expected) even when trying to march though an enemy formation to reach it - well, that does not seem correct to me.

Anyway, never mind, we can live with it.

I entirely agree, an option like I recently found in BftB: "retake position" - could enable the player to decide how much men and force he is willing to commit to defend a certain position! - one thing however - how is it that that when deploying in "defense" the enemy is already in position??? - I mean, if an enemy is there...I would certainly use the "deploy" order....and in napoleonic times...noone would have issued a "defense" order only 100 metres away of the enemy...

CvC

[Gunner24]

noone would have issued a "defense" order only 100 metres away of the enemy...

This is the wole point of this topic, for me......I order a defend on line order when the enemy is a long way off, only to see the "blue line" drawn way ahead of where I wanted it, the guys go chasing off to the blue line which is too near the enemy, the enemy has done the same thing and hey presto we have a head on crash when both sides meant to form a defensive line a reasonable distance away from each other.