HistWar
HistWar (international zone) => Communities => Scenarios => Discussion démarrée par: Jacquinot le 20 juillet 2011, 21:26:49 pm
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Hello to all players.
I found on Russian reconstruction forum picture of Borodino map which was made by 3 captains of French army - Pressat, Chevrier, Regnault one week after battle. This map was photograph in "Russian State library" because it is impossible to get permission for scaning, this is document of XIX century. On this map you can see all Russian and French fortifications, woods like they be placed in 1812, roads, villages, rivers, brooks, ravines, etc. On original map you can read all information about every fortifications(how many guns, where they orient, when was taken by French arme), you can read how many buildings in vilages and how many was burn. It is most realistic map of Borodino field which show to us all situation on 5 - 7 september 1812. Especially thanks to "Le Grand Armee" for this document! :smile:
So, i remake my Borodino map in compliance with this old map.
Post your comments, what do you think?
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absolutely beautiful! - thanks very much for your hard work! - I'll try to use it for the deployments as soon as I get to them....
first on the list however:
EYLAU
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Thx! ;)
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Thanks Jacquinot ;)
Nice map!
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Good work Jacquinot and very intersting historical document.
At south i see a easy road to avoid redoubts (perhaps Davout idea to send 40000 men in the night and in the next morning to find themselves behind enemy lines ?).
For me absolutely better idea.
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Good work !!! ;)
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Je ne veux pas jouer les petits impertinents, mais, je trouve que le déséquilibre entre les camps Russes et Français est trop important... :|
Mais, bravo pour le travail...! :) ;)
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Good work Jacquinot and very intersting historical document.
At south i see a easy road to avoid redoubts (perhaps Davout idea to send 40000 men in the night and in the next morning to find themselves behind enemy lines ?).
For me absolutely better idea.
Maybe Alf, but for me main question it is what mean light green forest?
Domeniq-T read on map - broussailles et taillis - brushwood, but what mean Pressat, Chevrier, Regnault when they write broussailles et taillis? I paint broussailles et taillis like groups of coppices, but maybe i wrong.
It is very important question, because if it is realy was groups of coppices the flank maneuver was realy possible.
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If for Davout was possible,i do not see the problem.
I think he had examined the maps
Maybe not that road to south,perhaps another way.
But now who knows which way he had in mind ?
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Hello Jacquinot,
It is quite difficult to translate exactly those terms as light forest or brushes because they have different meanings in different countries : in the mediterranean I'ld say "maquis" with vegetation entangled from say, 3 to 6 feet and some trees 10 high. How does it look in this part of Russia , I don't know....The effect is to slow walking, prevent straight move, hide your position and sometimes make you circle like mad!
I'd found some details in dr Hourtoulle's book with authentic maps and witness illustrations : the infantry deployed and attacked in this "light green" but the formations look irregular. Also there are sketches of the redoubt and their defense in front : there was a large ditch, the abattis (whole trees cut with branches tipped and entangled and also some areas of "trous de loup" , holes about 4feet deep (enough to break horses charge and slow infantry) not on your map.
Probably you can consider (as Napoleon and Kutusov did) that the south or "vieille route de Moscou" was not the best choice as it was old, narrow and leading to wooden areas which was not suitable for a regular deployement in lines and columns for either untrained russian levies and mixed (dubiously enthusiastics ) french allies. But, good, trained and Highly spirited units may had done it...
To sum up, it was not considered clear terrain and I think you can use small spots of trees irregularly dispersed to give an idea (watch the Peninsular maps serie ).
For History, was it a good choice from both CinC to avoid the south road ????
Oster
Ps I just read Alfiere last message and I agree with his Davout's Hypothese.
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If for Davout was possible,i do not see the problem.
I think he had examined the maps
Maybe not that road to south,perhaps another way.
But now who knows which way he had in mind ?
Davout not examined the maps, because all French maps which French spy buy in St. Peterburg was false. All what they have before battle it is Lobau's sketch map.
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To Oster1815:
Can you show illustrations from your book?
I combine French map and googlemap of Borodino field, and you know what? Now on light green areas grow normal forest not brushwood or something. I have one hypothesis - now we all have gas and electricity to heat our houses, we build our houses of concrete and bricks, but in 1812 in Russia and in Europe i think, for this we use wood, so i think maybe light green areas it is young forest which grow on glades. What do you think?
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Very interesting historical document.
I know how it's hard to get historical sources.
You had to act cautiously when you have photographed this precious document.
Théo
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Very interesting historical document.
I know how it's hard to get historical sources.
You had to act cautiously when you have photographed this precious document.
Théo
Not me, but man who have access in State Library, he say that he can only take photograph on small camera, scaning and photograph on professional camera impossible because this is document of XIX century and no permission to do this. After 200 years Borodino still save secrets :D. Russian government not republish this map... maybe it is war secret? :smile:
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To Oster1815:
Can you show illustrations from your book?
I combine French map and googlemap of Borodino field, and you know what? Now on light green areas grow normal forest not brushwood or something. I have one hypothesis - now we all have gas and electricity to heat our houses, we build our houses of concrete and bricks, but in 1812 in Russia and in Europe i think, for this we use wood, so i think maybe light green areas it is young forest which grow on glades. What do you think?
Your hypotheses is perfectly realist if it coincide with the species of trees in your area. The end result will probably be the same : light cover and difficult terrain to maintain close order, but not enough to prevent the advance of infantry.
I'll check my book tomorrow and try pictures but Hourtoulle used the old map as a clear grey background with units positions and moves superposed in color... probably impossible to scan.
The book is Borodino by Dr Hourtoulle , ca 2003 edit. by Armes et Collections in French and in English. Maybe you can find one in your library ( there are many other napoleonic battles from the same author/edition) all are well illustrated specially for uniforms and portraits with biographies, also quite good OOB. more details tomorrow if you wish.
Oster
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Your hypotheses is perfectly realist if it coincide with the species of trees in your area. The end result will probably be the same : light cover and difficult terrain to maintain close order, but not enough to prevent the advance of infantry.
I'll check my book tomorrow and try pictures but Hourtoulle used the old map as a clear grey background with units positions and moves superposed in color... probably impossible to scan.
The book is Borodino by Dr Hourtoulle , ca 2003 edit. by Armes et Collections in French and in English. Maybe you can find one in your library ( there are many other napoleonic battles from the same author/edition) all are well illustrated specially for uniforms and portraits with biographies, also quite good OOB. more details tomorrow if you wish.
Oster
:oops: :oops: :oops:Misleading datas : the reference for the book is : La Moskowa - Borodino , la bataille des redoutes_ by F.G.HOURTOULLE . Published by Histoire et Collections-Paris,anno 2000.
Sorry for the mistakes :!:
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Your hypotheses is perfectly realist if it coincide with the species of trees in your area. The end result will probably be the same : light cover and difficult terrain to maintain close order, but not enough to prevent the advance of infantry.
I'll check my book tomorrow and try pictures but Hourtoulle used the old map as a clear grey background with units positions and moves superposed in color... probably impossible to scan.
The book is Borodino by Dr Hourtoulle , ca 2003 edit. by Armes et Collections in French and in English. Maybe you can find one in your library ( there are many other napoleonic battles from the same author/edition) all are well illustrated specially for uniforms and portraits with biographies, also quite good OOB. more details tomorrow if you wish.
Oster
[EDIT JMM] Thank you i try to download ... [deleted ]
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Funny book with funny pictures, but on first battle plan the Fleches deployment is wrong.
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But i like very much scary picture of Russian militia, nice dumb message to French players from man with axe! :D :D :D
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Glad you found my contribution useful and managed to download the book, there are 5 or 6 from the same team.
But what is " torrent" ?
Oster
It was the man who fell the trees ? :mrgreen: (...to run away faster, no? ;)
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Glad you found my contribution useful and managed to download the book, there are 5 or 6 from the same team.
But what is " torrent" ?
Oster
It was the man who fell the trees ? :mrgreen: (...to run away faster, no? ;)
Torrent it's program like eMule - file exchange program.
Yea, to French army can run away faster from Russia :p
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I found one more fantastic picture :D
If we have Grand redoubt like in this book i think French army was totaly desyroyed, in reality he was build in 25 august and have very small height of breastwork because Russian army haven't time to complete work.
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Pictures from new map:
1) Shevardino redoubt.
2) Bagration's fleches.
3) Grand redoubt (lunette).
4) Gorky's redoubts (redans)
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5) Maslov's fleches.
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Torrent it's program like eMule - file exchange program.
Yea, to French army can run away faster from Russia :p
Thanks, Great pictures from Borodino, congratulations :!:
Hourtoulle used many Boutourlin's maps and sketchs , was he a Russian or French ?
Oster
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WOW - very nice map - I see you took your time to work on the details! - very impressive!
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What a nice map !!! Thanks.... ;)
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Thanks, Great pictures from Borodino, congratulations :!:
Hourtoulle used many Boutourlin's maps and sketchs , was he a Russian or French ?
Oster
Boutourlins - it is old Russian noble clan. Boutourlin Dmitry Petrovich was Russian war historian.
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Boutourlins - it is old Russian noble clan. Boutourlin Dmitry Petrovich was Russian war historian
Thanks Jacquinot,
Do you have easy access to biographies or genealogic datas from old Russia ? I mean ca. 1600/1800....
I hope Axeman returned safe to Babushka and found a good bortsch with pirojkies to regain strength :lol:
It is just the end of the beginning :mrgreen:
oster
Ps: I tried Torrent but found only movies or TV -mostly XXXX :oops: - were are the books ?
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Hello,
Please, on this Forum, it's not possible to talk about Torrent and other tools for exchanging stuff... just for respecting the copyright and other laws.
JMM
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Hello,
Please, on this Forum, it's not possible to talk about Torrent and other tools for exchanging stuff... just for respecting the copyright and other laws.
JMM
Ok, it's understand!
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Thanks Jacquinot,
Do you have easy access to biographies or genealogic datas from old Russia ? I mean ca. 1600/1800....
I hope Axeman returned safe to Babushka and found a good bortsch with pirojkies to regain strength :lol:
It is just the end of the beginning :mrgreen:
oster
Ps: I tried Torrent but found only movies or TV -mostly XXXX :oops: - were are the books ?
You can find some biographies in internet. Do you have ancestors in Russia?
Bortsch :p, it's very tastefully, i like it with 100 gram of vodka and salted cucumber :smile:
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: Александр Иванович Остерман-Толстой; 1772 – 12 February 1857)
Although not an ancestor, my family name is Ostermann and came apparently from the same part of ancient Germany than the Grand father of this Héroïc general*. The link is probably dubious -if there is one :?: but it was a great pleasure to read his short biography and portrait in Hourtoulle's book.
International Wikipedia ( the russian one is perhaps more deatailed ?) give some more infos which open my imagination and if you have more about the origins from today Rheineland or Westphalia , I'ld be very interested . My first Ostermann ancestor is registered back to ca 1510 as coming from there to Alsace, both regions being connected at the time (commercial links or rulers families???) All documents I saw were in old german sometimes mixed with latin....
I agree for the vodka , but 100grs looks a bit heavy for my aged organism - and what about blinis with some very small black balls to begin :lol:?
Oster
* He lost an arm, was it at Borodino where he distinguished once more?
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Count Alexander Ivanovich Ostermann-Tolstoy (1771 – 11 February 1857) was a General of infantry (1817), the hero of the Patriotic War of 1812.
Alexander Ivanovich Tolstoy was born into the family of Ivan Matveeviča Tolstoy (1746-1808) (whose mother was the daughter of count a. Count Osterman's Corps, diplomat, companions of Peter the great) and Agrafeny Il′iničny Bibikovoj. Empress Catherine II allowed herself during the young Tolstoy in 1796 to take the title, the name and coat of arms of kind Ostermanov from his childless dvorûrodnyh grandparents — Fyodor and Ivan count Osterman's Corps.
A. Tolstoy on customs from a very early age recorded for military service in the life guard Preobrazhensky Regiment. The 14-year-old age he was an ensign for seniority. Military service began in 1788, in the war against the Turks, was in the army of Prince Potemkin. Participated in 1790 under the command of Suvorov's storm of Izmail, awarded for distinguished order of St. George, 4th class. In 1793 he served in the egerskom package formed Bugsky m. i. Kutuzov — husband Emperor of Catherine Il′iničny Bibikovoj.
In February 1798, Osterman-Tolstoy, taking the title and surname of Countess Ostermanov, promoted to General-majors at the age of 28 years and appointed Chief of Šlissel′burgskogo musketeer Regiment. Suddenly all the 2 months removed from military service and rank valid statskogo Adviser, stripped from military service. The reason the doghouse of King Paul I was simple, the new King did not like the favourite of his mother, Catherine II. Only after accession to the throne Alexander Osterman-Tolstoy was in 1801 to return to the army.
With the beginning of the wars against Napoleon in 1805, General Ostermann at the theatre of hostilities. In 1806, promoted to Lieutenant.
In the spring of 1807, the territory of Prussia took military actions against the Corps of Marshal Ney, who sought to cut off the Russians from Koenigsberg. 24 may, avant-garde Bagration, which was a division of count Osterman's Corps-Tolstoy, took a hit than the enemy. In this battle Ostermann was wounded in the leg by a bullet the play-off. In October 1810, Osterman, jacked up the wound, the resignation of the right to wear uniforms, but immediately went back into service with the start of the Patriotic War of 1812.
During the war he commanded the 4th Infantry Corps of the 1st Western army Barclay de Tolly, scored ostrovno and Borodine. Under Near Osterman-Tolstoy was wounded, but after a few days back.
Earl is famous for its words, spoken to them in the battle of ostrovno: "Violently boomed an enemy artillery and vyryvala entire series brave the Russian regiments. It was difficult to carry our guns, charges they rasstrelâlis′ the guns have fallen. Ask Earl: "what should I do?" "Nothing, he is responsible, is stand and die!" (C.N. Glinka).
In the campaign of 1813, Osterman-Tolstoy glorified his name on August 17 in brilliant battle of Kulm where he lost his left hand, one heart. Russian artist Vasily Kondratievich Sazonov painted depicting count Osterman's Corps-Tolstoy during the surgery, has over him at the battle of Kulm. Even earlier, on May 9, 1813 in the battle under the Baucenom he was wounded by a bullet in the shoulder.
King of Prussia awarded count Osterman's Corps Great Prussian Iron Cross, an award which was presented in their history only seven times. Victory at Kulm closed the Napoleon road in Bohemia, and the people of the Czech Republic made the hero of the battle of the gift. In the State Historical Museum is the hrabromu Cup, podnesennyj Ostermanu from the Czech women's in memory of Kulm on 17 August 1813, and jacket, which was Osterman tolstoi when injured.
Osterman returned to Petersburg in early 1814, and was immediately appointed as aide-de-camp to General Alexander i. in this capacity until his death the emperor. In 1816, he was appointed commander of the Grenadier Corps. In August 1817 gets Chin-from-infantry, but his health after a severe wounds was so shaken that he be released the same year and dismissed from the Corps in indefinite leave, while continuing to be listed in the military service.
In the early 1820s Osterman-Tolstoy lived in Saint Petersburg in his home on the promenade.
During the Suppression of the Decembrist revolt in 1825 some rebel officers (e. Zavalishin, n. Bestuzhev and Kuhelbecker) took refuge in the House of count Osterman's Corps-Tolstoy, located on the promenade. Among the Decembrists were relatives of count Osterman's Corps, for whom he unsuccessfully strove.
After Nicholas I's accession to the throne, not poladiv with the new emperor, Osterman-Tolstoy went to Italy.
In 1828, count Osterman traveled be Emperor Nicholas I, to offer their services during the Turkish campaign; his proposal was not adopted. Count Osterman's corps finally dismissed from the service with permission to travel abroad. Alexander Ivanovich again went to Rome, then settled in Geneva, where he spent almost 20 years, occasionally leaving abroad.
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: Àëåêñàíäð Èâàíîâè÷ Îñòåðìàí-Òîëñòîé; 1772 – 12 February 1857)
Although not an ancestor, my family name is Ostermann and came apparently from the same part of ancient Germany than the Grand father of this Héroïc general*. The link is probably dubious -if there is one :?: but it was a great pleasure to read his short biography and portrait in Hourtoulle's book.
International Wikipedia ( the russian one is perhaps more deatailed ?) give some more infos which open my imagination and if you have more about the origins from today Rheineland or Westphalia , I'ld be very interested . My first Ostermann ancestor is registered back to ca 1510 as coming from there to Alsace, both regions being connected at the time (commercial links or rulers families???) All documents I saw were in old german sometimes mixed with latin....
I agree for the vodka , but 100grs looks a bit heavy for my aged organism - and what about blinis with some very small black balls to begin :lol:?
Oster
* He lost an arm, was it at Borodino where he distinguished once more?
Blinis with small black balls? It is black caviar i think? Black caviar very expensive i usually buy red caviar. But if you come to Astrakhan you can buy cheep black caviar from poachers(warning!!! It is illegal!!!) ;)
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Spasiba Jacquinot,
:oops:Apologizes to all Borodino fans , this story is probably misplaced here...
The story is very impressive with much more living History than I'd found before.
Too bad I can't say it was my ancestor !
But, with such nobility roots, probably I'ld have not survived the 1917 Révolution and following years :mrgreen:.
I just hope sometimes ca 1500/1600 there were some links somewhere in Germany - but Ostermann is quite common name in German.
Anyway , many thanks for your fast response and such an interesting story of a général almost unknown outside of Russia!
If we have more personnal exchanges I guess we'ld be find another place ;) ( Tavern?)
Oster
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The final variant of my map with French map like bottom layer! Looks cool!!! :p
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In practice satellite map + french historical map how user map .
Only 2 roads made with editor
1)road ->LOP + Borodino+LOP
2)road->go through Utitza
And the other are old roads or little rivers (of french historical map) ?
The map is very suggestive,well Jacquinot.
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In practice satellite map + french historical map how user map .
Only 2 roads made with editor
1)road ->LOP + Borodino+LOP
2)road->go though Utzika
And the other are old roads (of french historical map) ?
No other roads on this map, only two main roads 1) New Smolensk road.
2) Old Smolensk road.
On the North of map but over the limit of map in reality was Gzhatsky road (short road to Mozhaisk), that's why Kutuzov build many redoubts on right flank, he scare that French go over his right flank on Gzhatsky road and cut New Smolensk road before Mozhaisk.
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I add little rivers(brooks) using googlemap and in compliance with relief, on french map not all brooks looks correct, but after 200years relief can change a little.
Maybe you mean old paths?
I draw 90% of old paths from French map.
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Now , to see better i notice the brooks made with editor.
I am speaking of brooks that enter into main river.
Thank you for reply.
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Congratulations Jacquinot,
You worked hard today but the result looks spectacular.
Following your docs, I searched Ostrowno and found Jacquinot charged Ostermann at once :!:
Amazing, no - A good sample of a small napoleonic encounter between to very different armies : large cavalry -under Murat himself- against mostly Infantry unprepared.
When are you offering the map :smile:
Oster
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The final variant of my map with French map like bottom layer! Looks cool!!! :p
Impressive! :shock:
Congratulation, one of the best Histwar map!
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i agree... fantastic map !!!! ;)
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Hello,
I'd not found how to join the map on private messages :roll: :roll: :roll:
Hope you'll have it there.
On GoogEarth I found an Ostrov but in Bielo Russia- Do you think it's the same ?
Thanks,
Oster
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Background to the Patriotic War of 1812
Saltanovka-Ostrovno – Kobrin – Gorodečno – Klâsticy – Smolensk – Polotsk (1)-Valutina mountain-Borodino – Tarutino-Maloyaroslavets-Polotsk (2)-Vyazma-Chashniki – Smalany – Red – Berezina-Prosecution
Russian army Each de Tolly and Bagration fighting retreating when planning to connect in the District of Vitebsk. However, Davout cut Bagration road at Vitebsk and Bagration decided to move to Smolensk. Not knowing about this and retreating from Polotsk, Barclay de Tolly 23 July (13 Church style) reached the Vitebsk and expecting Bagration. The Vitebsk also followed Napoleon with the main forces. Barclay was a choice: either to retreat further to Smolensk, giving without fighting the Russian land or remain in place and as forces detain French promotion until suitable Bagration. Barclay had decided, without a general battle, delay time by fighting, taking advantage of the woodland and rough terrain. This decision contributed to the fragmentation of Napoleon's forces were scattered around the front hull and experienced great difficulties in supply.
1st Russian army rested in Vitebsk, 2 days before French patrols, missed kazač′imi by roadblocks, quite unexpectedly, have been found in 3 km from the city on the road — Vitebsk Beshankovichy (along the left bank of the Daugava River), while the rearguard of the army was expecting the arrival of the enemy on the other side of the Dvina River. To close the road, the Commander of the 1st army Barclay sent a 4th Peh. Corps of count Osterman's Corps-Thick with several regiments of cavalry. According to Yermolov: Nadoben General who was relieved by the forces of the enemy and they would not ustrašili. "
The bulk of the army took a defensive position in Vitebsk, the positions of the Lučesoj River, which flows into the Dvina Vitebsk. The Russian army remained in the rear of the road to Blagoevgrad and Smolensk.
[edit] the course of the battle [edit] 25 iûlâFajl: Battle of Ostrovno 1812 png map.
Map of the rearguard fighting under Vitebsk in 1812. Vanguard of count Osterman's Corps-Thick with had the 4th Infantry Corps, two gusarskih dragunskuû Regiment, brigade and horse artillery company. The battlefield say about 6 thousands of soldiers in the possession of count Osterman's Corps. According to other information, the Russian squad was 9 thousand fighters.
In the vanguard of the life guards Hussar and Nezhin Dragoon regiments came across a French Piquet, attacked and harassed in the direction of the village of Ostrovno (about 25 km west of Vitebsk), where short 8 km before Ostrovno faced major avant-garde French forces under the leadership of Murat, consisting of the 1st Hussar Division (Maj. Bruyères) and 1st kirasirskoj Division (Maj. Saint-Germain). Murat had mounted artillery but lacked infantry.
Broke off the fight, which lasted all day. The French initially successful, the 8th Hussar Regiment broke the 2 Russian Leib-Hussar Squadron and captured in the forest 6 guns of horse artillery, heading for sledding with Hussars at. To stop the French success in the battle of second Osterman introduced Hussar Regiment and troops, blocking the road built at Vitebsk. The left flank of the avant-garde in marshy forest, dig right flank be cloaked Dvina. Russian artillery prostrelivala the way, causing great losses on the enemy konnice sgrudivšejsâ along it.
Due to overcrowding and the lack of infantry Murat could not fully implement the numerical superiority, so he had to do a series of fierce frontal attack. Attacks were Cavalry on the road, where the 2 battalions of Russian infantry were built on both sides of the road in Kara, making infantry vulnerable to the actions of the French artillery. Troops strongly reflected attack, incurring significant losses. Sergey Glinka's "Notes on the 1812 year" says:
"Fiercely boomed an enemy artillery and vyryvala entire series brave the Russian regiments. It was difficult to carry our guns, charges they rasstrelâlis′ the guns have fallen. Ask Earl: "what should I do?" "Nothing, he is responsible, is stand and die!" "The battlefield recall a cruise phrase, later the symbol of the resistance of the Russian soldier, on the other. Podporučik artillery Gp Mešetič passes it [1]:
"This time is was a battalion of infantry from the bushes, a lot of enemy shells poured the cores, whole ranks severely broke from the front; When was placed under Ostermanu-Tolstoy about a loss and loss of life, he, under birch trees standing, tobacco smell, said: "Come and die". "The soldiers of count Osterman's Corps attacked the French directly through the forest, and forest same struck volley. The French could not break through the Russian infantry, commissioned konnicej attack by artillery of the French. When Mûratu came 13th Peh. Del′zona Division of the Corps de Beauharnais, he put her through the forest, bypassing the Russian left-wing. Osterman went to Vitebsk to a new position. The night brought a respite to the 4th Corps of the Russians.
26 July to replace the 4th Corps of count Osterman's Corps were sent to the 3rd Infantry Division and kirasirskaâ Division of Konovnicyna Kav. Corps Uvarova. They took position behind-ravine near the village of Kakuvâčinoj, Osterman night took up a position behind Konovnicyna as his reserve, kirasirskoj Division, has not entered into the case because of the very rough terrain.
Mûratu came to Eugene Bogarnè chassis. On the morning of 26 July, the battle on the narrow road in the forest resumed. While Murat aimed to attack the left flank of the Russians, Russians successfully attacked the left flank of the French, where the scattered battalion Croats and 84 Regiment. The French left flank fled and stood up. Murat led a Polish Ulan, while other French generals were able to stop the fleeing soldiers and return them in battle. The position of the left-wing were restored, the Russians retreated into the forest. On the right flank of the advancing French held off a strong artillery fire and gullies, stesnâvšie French cavalry. Barclay sent to reinforce rearguard Lieutenant Tuchkova 1st with the grenaderskoû Division, it has the same command. How to recognise a French officer [2]: "Many arrows [Russians] had been forced to pay for the expensive way, which we have otvoëvyvali."
The French Corps at about 2 o'clock in the afternoon Napoleon personally, taking a command. He led that around 3 o'clock the French threw Russians and their retreat nearly turned the flight because of disorder in command (in the opinion of General Yermolov).
Notes from a. p. Yermolov, Chief of staff of 1st army
Neither the courage nor the troops of General Konovnicyna fearlessness could not keep them [the French]. Inverted arrows our quickly departed in droves. General Konovnicyn, negoduâ, command of troops took General Tuchkov, didn't care about restoring order, the latter not vibrated in the importance of the circumstances and the only activity not provided. I made them a view of the need to withdraw from the confusion and draw to the device. by the evening the French approached the Vitebsk, but tired of battle stopped for respite and intelligence came to forest road to the operating room.
[edit] 27 July
Infantry Gets an attack of cavalry in battle in Vitebsk. Apparently refers to the episode on 27 July, when surrounded by a group of French shooters otbivalas′ from Russian Ulan. Figure of the 19th century After a departure regiments, Barclay took all troops on Vitebsk in a single place and destroyed a message with the right bank of the Daugava River. His intention was to give battle to the French, delay their progress and connect with the 2nd army Bagration. 1st army took up positions across the River Lučesoj, the upiraâs′ the right flank in the Dvina and closing the forest on the left flank. However, in the early morning of 27 July Each rushed into the camp from the courier Bagration informing it that the moves to Smolensk. The same prisoners informed the Russians of Napoleon, and this meant the 150th. the French against the 75th. the Russians. On the night of 26 to 27 July, the Russian army peremenila position, moving from the banks of the Lučesy the road on the Babinoviči, that is prepared to sail, although continued to create the impression of preparations for the battle.
27 July, the rear led Graf Pahlen with fresh forces: 3-4 thousand infantry, 4 thousand cavalry and 40 guns. Pahlen took up a position in 8 km from Vitebsk outside the village of Dobrejka, having in the rear of the Lučesu River. The rearguard Palena fought with 5 o'clock in the morning and up to 3 hours of the day and then retreated over Lučesu, which were shortly before the 1st army position Each. Clausewitz, personally present at Palena, attributed to sluggish French onslaught weak Russian counter Napoleon's desire to thoroughly prepare for the battle, the Emperor on the following day. According to the memoirs of count One Napoleon even ordered 11 a.m. stop attacks at Palena, in order to be able to inspect the upcoming battle, as well as tighten the stragglers.
Napoleon wrote to Mûratu: "tomorrow at 5 am Sun Austerlica!" on the eve of the French with the heights observed detailed Russian army on the banks of the Lučesy. After the change of position, according to General Yermolov, did not have the ability to see the main army, but continued to believe in the intention of the Russian claim Vitebsk.
But in 1 hour of the day on 27 July, the 1st army Each quietly moved three columns in Smolensk, about what the French have not guessed. Woodland and counter the Palena concealed the departure of the Russian army, Napoleon found only on the morning of 28 July.
[edit] after bitvyFrancuzy couldn't understand where left the Russian army. Pursue her they could not. General Belliard to Napoleon's cavalry replied simply: "6 days of March, and the Cavalry to disappear." after meeting with military commanders, Napoleon decided to stop further promotion in Russia.
After the battle the French couldn't understand where left the Russian army. Pursue her they could not. General Belliard to Napoleon's cavalry replied simply: "6 days of March, and the Cavalry to disappear." after meeting with military commanders, Napoleon decided to stop further promotion in Russia.
He returned on 28 July at the headquarters in Vitebsk, Napoleon left his Sabre on the map with the words [3]:
Here I will! Here I have to look around, give the rest of the army and to Poland. The campaign of 1812, 1813, to complete the rest of the campaign. "Russian army reunited in Smolensk on August 3, soon forced Napoleon to change plans.
In a three-day battle in Vitebsk with the Russian side was killed, Maj.-Gen. failure of Okulov, learning about 3764 [4].
French losses are usually evaluated as equal Russian (3704, of which 300 prisoners), Brigadier General Roussel was killed.
The memory of this battle, immortalized in the Obelisk at the village of Ostrovno. The inscription on it reads:
"Here, on the battlefield, under the
Ostrovno, Kukovâčino,
Dobrejkoj 13-14/25-26/
July 1812, 9 thousand
a detachment of Russian troops under the command
also the generals
Count Osterman's Corps-Tolstoy and
Konovnicyna Stoicho der
would defend against 20-thousand-
Noah Napoleon's army than to
pečili free SOE-
dinenie 1st and 2nd Russian armies
the Smolensk "
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I found Ostrovno on map, yes now it in Belorussia, but underwater!!!!!! :shock:
Damn, Ostrovno it's name of lake :D. But where the village?
Now on map only lake, village destroyed i think.
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Здравствуйте Jaquinot. Your Borodino map looks great! wikipedia says Ostrovno battle took place 30 Km west of Vitebsk.
Look here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ostrovno
There's a lot a information about where the battle occurred but it's not really accurate.
Also here : http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Бой_под_Островно
and here : http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Островно_(Бешенковичский_район)
on the last link, you can find the coordinate and put them in google earth. But you can surely find more information since you're russian ( I understand almost nothing :? )
Ostrovno Coordinates : 55°08′00″ 29°53′00
(About 30km west of Vitebsk like wikipedia said. :D )
Sorry if you already had a look at these link :mrgreen:
Good luck!
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Thanks Soldat Pozine !
Jacquinot is Russian, but I'm French so we communicate in English :shock: logic.....
All infos welcome, but Wikipedia russian translated par Bing (?) in English give amazing results, then if you translate again this english version in French it makes something like a "schtroumpff "language with words in russian, other in english and other :?:
If you're a french-speaking Quebecois you can find on googlebooks a french translation of Boutourlin on the topic along with many books free to read on the period :)
Quel temps fait-il dans la Belle Province où quelques ancêtres collateraux ont émigré vers 1670 (prés de TroisRiviéres) ;)
Oster
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Hi Jacquinot,
Spasiba for your research ;)
I'd found this picture of Moscow Elite Hussars and another which follow.
Do you think we ask modders to design frogmen for underwater battle :mrgreen:
Also, I just discovered the "interprete" BING is also giving maps with cyrillic names translated...but only on a larger scale.
Oster
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Jacquinot,
Here the map from Bing.
So the large town with bridge on sketchmap is ViTEBSK ?
Is BieloRussian a different language/spelling of Russian?
oster
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Jacquinot,
Here the map from Bing.
So the large town with bridge on sketchmap is ViTEBSK ?
Is BieloRussian a different language/spelling of Russian?
oster
Yes it is Vitebsk, your map screenshot looks like map in wikipedia.
Belorussian it is variant of Russian, you can understand if you know Russian.
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Hi Jacquinot,
Spasiba for your research ;)
I'd found this picture of Moscow Elite Hussars and another which follow.
Do you think we ask modders to design frogmen for underwater battle :mrgreen:
Also, I just discovered the "interprete" BING is also giving maps with cyrillic names translated...but only on a larger scale.
Oster
What is Moscow Elite Hussars?
Regular Hussars regiments (guards and army):
Life guards Hussar (1798)
Alexandria (1783)
Akhtyrsky (founded in 1765)
Belarusian (founded in 1803)
Grodno (created in 1806).
Elisavetgradskij (created in 1764.)
Izyum (founded in 1765)
Irkutsk (created in 1812.)
Lubnu (established in 1807.)
Mariupol (1783)
Ol′viopol′skij (1783)
Pavlograd (1783)
Sumy (founded in 1765)
Hussars militia regiments:
Moscow Hussar Regiment create by count p. i. Saltykov
(was created in 1812 for Earl p. i. Saltykova, then together with Irkutsk dragunskim Regiment became part of the Irkutsk Hussars Regiment)
Hussars shelves Russian-German Legion
(two hussars Regiment, which was established in 1812 from Russian Germans-colonists and defectors from the German part of Napoleon's Army)
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Thanks Soldat Pozine !
Jacquinot is Russian, but I'm French so we communicate in English :shock: logic.....
All infos welcome, but Wikipedia russian translated par Bing (?) in English give amazing results, then if you translate again this english version in French it makes something like a "schtroumpff "language with words in russian, other in english and other :?:
If you're a french-speaking Quebecois you can find on googlebooks a french translation of Boutourlin on the topic along with many books free to read on the period :)
Quel temps fait-il dans la Belle Province où quelques ancêtres collateraux ont émigré vers 1670 (prés de TroisRiviéres) ;)
Oster
I would speak russian if I could :mrgreen: ( I'm still learning ) But anyways, looks like jaquinot is about to remake every map :shock:
Boutourlin? Connais pas :mrgreen: Jconnais presque rien de l'époque napoléonienne. Au québec on nous parle pas de ça dans nos classes d'histoire :? On nous parle seulement des british.
Aujourd'hui il fait un temps superbe :D ( Et il annonce des averses pour cet aprem. :x )
PS. C'est pas un forum anglais ici? :mrgreen:
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I would speak russian if I could :mrgreen: ( I'm still learning ) But anyways, looks like jaquinot is about to remake every map :shock:
Boutourlin?
No, i only Borodino fan :D
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Just found that while searching for Ostrowno , a link sent me to a miniatures wargame site. The title was "Moskow Elite Hussars", so I sent you as a postcard/reward for hardwork :p - I decline responsability for identification!
I don't know if the map comes from wikipedia - Probably Wiki and Bling work together.
It was hard to guess Vitebsk as it looks like BUMEBCK....for me :|
Anyway, they are useful, even if the "Interpret" looks like someone who drink vodka for breakfast. ( just try to write something in russian, then ask it translation in english or french, then ask him to translate again in russian....the result can be amazing :shock:)
About 40 years ago, I tried to learn some Russian , I remember very few with almost no alphabet ( Ia lioubliou vodka, spasiba tovaritch...)
Oster
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Yes, we're in the "international zone", mostly English speaking as the "lingua franca" for most wargamers.
It was just a little welcome for a Quebecois fellow!
presque rien de l'époque napoléonienne. Au québec on nous parle pas de ça dans nos classes d'histoire ...
Ben, en France on en parle aussi de moins en moins ! regarde les messages du mois dernier dans la Taverne des Français :twisted:
Histwar is a very good place to enjoy wargaming and learn some history about this period :!: You can also find some useful references to books in the library ( watch under TOF or Reinel in Membres)
Oster
Ps Boutourlin is an authority about The Great Patriotic War of 1812 ( Russian point of view) but also respected in Western Europe - and , I guess, a favorite reading for Jacquinot ;)
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Ici vous êtes sur le forum international et pas sur sa partie anglaise.. ;)
Les langues peuvent donc y être diverses, pourvu que l'on se comprenne...
Pour ce qui concerne les Tavernes françaises, ses braves sont au repos après des semaines de farouches combats... 8)
Here you are on the international forum and not on its English part.. ;)
The languages can thus be there diverse, if we understand...
As regards the French Taverns, its braves are for the rest after weeks of wild fights... 8)
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Ps Boutourlin is an authority about The Great Patriotic War of 1812 ( Russian point of view) but also respected in Western Europe - and , I guess, a favorite reading for Jacquinot ;)
I like to read Tarle, he more Bonapartist. :smile:
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New Borodino map with old deployment.
Now old deployment looks not much correct on new map, what do you think?
1) Napoleon can't see action on Fleches from his command post.
2) Not enough space for French Grand battery(102 guns).
3) Wrong deployment for Companas and Dessaix divisions.
Whats more not correct?
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I have some deployments from old Russian maps, but for me they looks not correct so much, i can't see French Grand battery 102 guns.
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5012/3845413.1/0_5ca7f_2cddea91_orig)
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5112/3845413.1/0_5ca7e_da73517f_orig)
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4912/3845413.1/0_5ca7d_a12e8399_orig)
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Pour ce qui concerne les Tavernes françaises, ses braves sont au repos après des semaines de farouches combats...
Mon Général,
J'espére que la fermeture ne sera pas trop longue, que penseront mes camarades officiers si ma première épaulette n'est pas réglementairement arrosée :oops:
Pour les langues, je vous approuve mais j'ai malheureusement l'impression que ,sur ce forum, nous sommes nettement dominés....et ce n'est rien par rapport à l'époque où j'ai commencé à chercher des regles et de la doc. Je devais en avoir 90% en Anglais _ ce qui m'a été bien utile pour l'apprendre au delà du niveau scolaire :?
Quelqu'un a-t-il essayé de faire une statistique des nationalités présentes chez les Histwariens? A première vue, je dirais que les francophones dominent largement mais que l'anglais s'impose comme seule langue commune...Rendons leur cette justice, ils ont inventé le warGAME, même si les Allemands ont inventé le KRIEGspiel....
Oster
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Mon Général,
J'espére que la fermeture ne sera pas trop longue, que penseront mes camarades officiers si ma première épaulette n'est pas réglementairement arrosée :oops:
Pour les langues, je vous approuve mais j'ai malheureusement l'impression que ,sur ce forum, nous sommes nettement dominés....et ce n'est rien par rapport à l'époque où j'ai commencé à chercher des regles et de la doc. Je devais en avoir 90% en Anglais _ ce qui m'a été bien utile pour l'apprendre au delà du niveau scolaire :?
Quelqu'un a-t-il essayé de faire une statistique des nationalités présentes chez les Histwariens? A première vue, je dirais que les francophones dominent largement mais que l'anglais s'impose comme seule langue commune...Rendons leur cette justice, ils ont inventé le warGAME, même si les Allemands ont inventé le KRIEGspiel....
Oster
Pour ma part je trouve que les deux langues cohabitent plutôt bien et qu'il n'y a pas de "dominant" ou "dominé" sur ce forum mais la on se retrouve un peu hors-sujet.
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But great battery (120 guns) was not at west of Borodino?
How at Waterloo, the question is , where was the great battery ? :mrgreen:
My book says (Napo starting plans)
1)Great battery on west to Borodino with massive bombardament on russian location.
2)(on the left)Eugene and Grouchy must conquest Borodino,then cross Koloc and then attack Doctorov and then attack great reduced? of Raevskij.
3)(center)Companas and Dessaix divisions must attack russian fortifications at arrowhead.If this attack ok , Ney advance on the left of Davout.Ney and Davout at conquest of Semionovskaija at left center of enemy.
4)(on the right) Poniatowski go to Utitsa and attempt to attack left russian flank.
5) All cav ,Junot,the Guard,Friant in central reserve.
With pic without names of location and fortifications ,it is a little difficult to understand if deploy is ok with plans.
You are Borodino man , mine is only a attempt to understand.
The big pics , are not for me in russian language.
Strange my book has the maps of many battles , but not of Borodino.
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About Grand battery -" The night before the battle to build three batteries at 24 pieces each: the first two against Semenovskih fleshey, the position taken by the Corps of Davout, and the third against the Kurgan batteries (Battery Rayevsky's Corps), the position of viceroy. Install gun artillery reserve to which add: battery Viceroy-howitzers of the 4th Corps, which amounted to a total of 32 guns; on the battery, against Semyonov flushes-16 howitzers General Foucher (hence the name battery Foucher), which amounted to 40 shells; battery is located against the left Semyonov was promote flushes battery General Perneti (38 guns, 8 howitzers), striking with the outskirts of the forest on the edge of the ravine "Kamenka"."
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In another source: "In accordance with the provisions of Napoleon, delivered to the battle, as always, clear and accurate. In particular, provided that: the night before the battle to build three batteries at 24 pieces each: the first two against Semenovskih fleshey, the position taken by the Corps of Davout [337] and third against the Kurgan batteries (Battery Rayevsky's Corps), the location of the Corps of the viceroy. All these batteries should strengthen howitzers so that the number of shells at them: on battery location Viceroy – 32 guns, the battery in a location of Marshal Davout – 40 and 24 shells, respectively against the right (North) and left (South) fleshey. (These batteries in patriotic literature called, respectively, "batteries Foucher and Sorb′e"). In addition to actions against the left flushes, appointed battery Perneti (38 guns), which should put the dawn on the edge of the forest on the edge of the ravine Kamenka."
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Ok,ok Jacquinot,I think that is enough.
Thank you.
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Ok,ok Jacquinot,I think that is enough.
Thank you.
I think not :D
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:mrgreen:
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:mrgreen:
nonstoppable this guy...
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nonstoppable this guy...
My favorit battle, i want full simulation!!! :D
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I do some experiments with Grand battery and i think find good place for she which come to agreement with memoirs of battle members and Napoleon's disposition.
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:shock: My god! the poor guys in front of the grand battery :?
Good work!
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Bon Courage, Jacquinot,
Very impressive view of the Grande Batterie in Action !
But I'm afraid you calculated the relative heights too flat . I think there was a deeper separation between the opposite hills. Also, your guns in this position will probably had to cease fire soon as they must keep a safe height over the heads of advancing infantry or fire only in the spaces between units - but where :(
This is less important for howitzers firing high, but you need to use also the mass of 12pdrs as long as you can.
Well, I'm not a specialist of Borodino- it's just an impression :|
This battery combined with 1/1 army will certainly look frightening and noisy :mrgreen:
Oster
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Bon Courage, Jacquinot,
Very impressive view of the Grande Batterie in Action !
But I'm afraid you calculated the relative heights too flat . I think there was a deeper separation between the opposite hills. Also, your guns in this position will probably had to cease fire soon as they must keep a safe height over the heads of advancing infantry or fire only in the spaces between units - but where :(
This is less important for howitzers firing high, but you need to use also the mass of 12pdrs as long as you can.
Well, I'm not a specialist of Borodino- it's just an impression :|
This battery combined with 1/1 army will certainly look frightening and noisy :mrgreen:
Oster
All heights was calculated with googlerth and scilab, the field is realy flat infront redoubts you can see on my photos:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5/obsadka.0/0_4ace_652d8869_orig)
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5/obsadka.0/0_4abc_45168112_orig)
Thats why Companas and Dessaix come to attack through the woods to the right of battery. ;)
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Good art pics.
Some my little doubts in the pic.
In the historical map , seems to me to see vegetations but perhaps not very woods.(i am not sure)
Because Ney at the left of Davout, that together attack at center-left of russians.
Take a look at frame V ,Ney and Davout standby near Utitsa woods (left-center russian front).
http://www.allworldwars.com/The%20Batlle%20of%20Borodino%20September%207%201812.html
Anyway , i consider this a suicide attack (Ney-Davout).
Also attack of Eugene and Gruchy with cross the river and with good russian force on the right is very risky.
But,Napo....has had its good reasons.
When you upload on depot? It is very interesting to see the map in 3D.
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Excuse me , my Friend,
Your pictures give a different and better view ( if the ground was not levelled...) than the maps :(
If you you took pictures of all the battlefield it'll be difficult to quibble for minor points .
Are there any remains of the redoubts or fieldworks ? The battlefield seems to have been seriously protected, too bad Waterloo is not the same :mrgreen:
Oster
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Excuse me , my Friend,
Your pictures give a different and better view ( if the ground was not levelled...) than the maps :(
If you you took pictures of all the battlefield it'll be difficult to quibble for minor points .
Are there any remains of the redoubts or fieldworks ? The battlefield seems to have been seriously protected, too bad Waterloo is not the same :mrgreen:
Oster
In september i try to visit Borodino and take alot of pictures.
Yes some fieldworks was rerbuild in 1970 yer, this photos i take standing on southern lunette(fleche). Bagration fleches was rebuild all, Grand redoubt was rebuild on 25%, and was rebuild one French battery and one Russian battery infront of the fleches.
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Good art pics.
Some my little doubts in the pic.
In the historical map , seems to me to see vegetations but perhaps not very woods.(i am not sure)
Because Ney at the left of Davout, that together attack at center-left of russians.
Take a look at frame V ,Ney and Davout standby near Utitsa woods (left-center russian front).
http://www.allworldwars.com/The%20Batlle%20of%20Borodino%20September%207%201812.html
When you upload on depot? It is very interesting to see the map in 3D.
1) After 200yers woods area become much bigger, now you can't see all field at Rubo panorama point of view. :(
2) Order to Ney was to attack between Grand redoubt and Bagration's fleches, in Napoleon's plan at 8.00 Davout should take Russian fieldworks on left flank, but when Ney come to attack Davout soldiers ask him for help to take redoubts and he change target to attack.
3) I upload when i finish deployment.
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1)Absolutely agree.
2)Ahh....ok.
3)well,we wait.
Hello Jacquinot,great work.
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Hello Jacquinot,
The site ALLWORLDWAR is excellent value for extensive reading
http://www.allworldwars.com/The%20Batlle%20of%20Borodino%20September%207%201812.html
I put it here again for those who missed as it is full of various infos, not only on Borodino.
The paintings of your favourite battle are very interesting -even if probably dramatized- :!:
They show the country less wooded but more rough with crags and deep ravines, much like the maps of the period. I guess it is impossible to do something like this in game maps :cry:
Bon Courage, we hope to see it soon ;)
Oster
Ps I'd found another very good Russian site "Reconstitution 8eme demi-Brigade de Ligne" at " 8eme.eu/fra/club.htm" with lot of pictures about Russian guys playing the French army with an enthusiastic vista :p
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Anyway only the Jacquinot photos give a true idea of ground and we have to imagine less vegetation, after 200 years.
We have to wait to see the map in 3D , but i think enough similar to photos also if more smoothed.
(Interpolation of heights Googlearth with right risolution of 45 mt horizzontal and 90 mt vertical,if i remember well.)
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The paintings of your favourite battle are very interesting -even if probably dramatized- :!:
They show the country less wooded but more rough with crags and deep ravines, much like the maps of the period. I guess it is impossible to do something like this in game maps :cry:
Yes, on Roubaud's panorama like on Adam's paintings heights looks bigger, ravines deeper and not much woods, especially on Adam's paintings. But i think it's just artistically exaggeration. ;)
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1 picture in reality
1 picture in game:
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But i think it's just artistically exaggeration
Maybe, but mind that in 200 years the ground was probably levelled a lot by natural erosion or man's action....
There were first the burial of thousands of men and horses, peasants searching what they can catch, (or cultivating on naturally fertilized ground :mrgreen:), then curiosity, collectors, archeologists -amateurs or not- and probably some heavy circulation :?: in WWII !
This is why I look seriously at paintings and drawings made on the spot a short time after the events and also memoirs of fighting men or witnesses.
If you have a look at Waterloo's battlefield sites, you will find how it was almost totally remodelled ( mostly for erection of Wellington's atrocious memory :evil: ) - to the point that many features are completely out of significance....This is explained by British historian themselves :!:
One of the best preserved battlesite I know is Gettysburgh, but only because it was protected immediately and benefits of regular cares ( up to keeping the vegetation as close as possible of the time of battle) so, you can look at the Panorama and find many points in the landscape.
Now, this is not to discourage you, as you did a very good job and much work for our pleasure of warGaming :p
Oster
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Excellent pics from the Histwar Battlefield :smile:
Reminds me of the serie of mags "Then and Now" trying to match historical pictures "mostly WWII) in today world.
Oster
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Field protected now and was protected 200 yers ago, you can't build anything on Borodino field(only on villages territory), you can't dig and excavate on field, all field is museum now and protected by state :!: :!: :!: I think landscape save very well (not like in Waterloo), only erosion can change something but after 200y not much i think.
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I thought at the shadows and do not understood because in your first photo the shadows on the right.
(you said 'in front at redoubts') then direction west to east (sun on the north ?)
Now i see again that photo o_4abc_451688, but with view from redoubt,now is clear , direction east to west, then sun on the south. (probabily you take that photo in the late morning)
But there are not shadows with game , you have take the screen with map editor with not defined time.
I remember , but not sure that in the battle the shadows there are.
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I thought at the shadows and do not understood because in your first photo the shadows on the right.
(you said 'in front at redoubts') then direction west to east (sun on the north ?)
Now i see again that photo o_4abc_451688, but with view from redoubt,now is clear , direction east to west, then sun on the south. (probabily you take that photo in the late morning)
But there are not shadows with game , you have take the screen with map editor with not defined time.
I remember , but not sure that in the battle the shadows there are.
First 3 photos i take standing on southern Bagration's lunette, 4rd photo i take standing on north Bagration's lunette, view direction west to east, time about 17.00.
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You can see on photos that too much woods now, not like on Adam's paintings or on my Histwar map. But i think the field was flat in 1812 like now.
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Deployment of French army by general Pelet:
In continuation of the night, the French army was structured as follows: Division, built pobrigadno, stood off to the right flank to the left; they were three soprikasavšiesâ lines, due to the small stretch of the front. The poles were sub-Saharan Doronina. On the right flank of the Division was in the forest, Kompana lying south of the Reduta complex Ševardinskogo; Desses and eventually several nazadi, between the forest and redutom; Louis Friant over nazadi and to the left. III Corps stood in the Centre, having a second line of Vestfal′skie Division VIII Corps. On the left flank, Koločej, Moran, a followed by Gerard. Brus′e was at a height of with the last, at the extreme left flank Delzons infantry. Behind the new Centre, also in lines pobrigadno, the old and the young guard Division near Friana, North of the Reduta complex, a 5-day; Division of the Legion of the Vistula River Klapareda or to the left of the guard. I cavalry corps (Nansuti) columns pobrigadno was behind the right-wing; (II) (Monbrûna), III (pears) on the left flank; (IV) (Latour-Mobura) in reserve and in the last line. Ornano with several shelves, light cavalry observed the end of the left. In continuation of the night were built batteries before the right flank of the army, in front of the Centre and left its flank. The first two were to join their fire against the redantov, built to the South of the Semyonovskiy and against the village. The latter was directed against the Reduta complex bastionnogo. Mobile batteries collected and sent to the chiefs of artillery I and III Corps were required to assist the operation of permanent batteries. Sorb′e supported them all mortars guards.
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Pelet about Ney's attack:
Marshal assigned to be the centre line between the I and IV Corps, received around 7: 00 the order to attack. The WMD direction led him to the North of the Semyonovskiy to split the ravine and forest rosšemu on the bottom part of it. But barely head III Corps descended into the ravine, the indomitable soldier throwing to the right, which calls upon its strong pal′ba, where he notices a slight fluctuation in the army I Corps. He was throwing Semenovskie redanty with divizieû Ledru. He reaches the nearest to the village of redanta and takes it. Vestfal′cy are held at the same altitude and compete with the French. Tarro, Damas killed at the forefront.
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Deployment is ready!!! I work hard and do it!!! :p
My main historic sources: 1) Correspondance de Napoléon I (vol. XXIV);
2) Memoirs of general Pelet-Clozeau about Russian compaign.
3) Memoris of Russian and French veterans about Borodino battle.
4) Articles of Russian historians: Pronin A.V., Hlestkin V.M., Grunberg P.N.
5) My own vision on battle. :)
Please post your coments and ask questions!
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5810/3845413.2/0_5db81_61f08c7a_orig)
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Thanks Jacquinot, very nice work ;)
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Your Magnum Opus, Jacquinot :!:
How many men and guns on the battlefield together ? and how much memory requested from the computer before the final explosion :oops:
Did you tried it solo? I would like to watch Sorbier in action....
Congratulations
Oster
Ps Don't forget the heroïc posture of my IV corps, I still had my two arms there ;)
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Your Magnum Opus, Jacquinot :!:
How many men and guns on the battlefield together ? and how much memory requested from the computer before the final explosion :oops:
Did you tried it solo? I would like to watch Sorbier in action....
Congratulations
Oster
Ps Don't forget the heroïc posture of my IV corps, I still had my two arms there ;)
Yes i try it, Sorbier, Foucher and Perneti destroy Russian south and north batterys after 30-40min, but how was in reality???
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Excellent work, This historical battle with the historical effective of the new patch will add another dimension to Histwar!
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Very good work and very useful all that informations.
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Deployment is ready!!! I work hard and do it!!! :p
My main historic sources: 1) Correspondance de Napoléon I (vol. XXIV);
2) Memoirs of general Pelet-Clozeau about Russian compaign.
3) Memoris of Russian and French veterans about Borodino battle.
4) Articles of Russian historians: Pronin A.V., Hlestkin V.M., Grunberg P.N.
5) My own vision on battle. :)
Please post your coments and ask questions!
Hello Jacquinot,
This is an interesting work. I appreciate your research to have the most possible historical scenarios, especially Borodino, of course !. I know we have to work hard for this.
1 - What sources did you used to make the order of battle ?
For us, it is especially difficult to obtain accurate Russian sources. You said that you used articles of three Russian historians.
2- Could you provide us web links to Russian OoBS to have the names of officers of the regiments and their strengths ?
__________________________________________________________________________________________
C'est un travail intéressant. J'apprécie ta recherche pour avoir les scénarios les plus historiques possibles, surtout Borodino, bien sûr !. Je sais qu'il faut travailler dur pour ça.
1 - Quelles sources as-tu utilisées pour faire l'ordre de bataille ?
Pour nous, il est particulièrement difficile d'obtenir des sources russes précises et fiables. Tu as utilisé des articles de trois historiens russes.
2 - Pourrais-tu nous fournir des liens internet vers des OdBs russes pour avoir les noms des officiers des régiments et de leurs nombres ?
Théo
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Très beau travail colonel Jacquinot !! merci pour ça. ;)
Very good work, thank you for that ;)
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Yes i try it, Sorbier, Foucher and Perneti destroy Russian south and north batterys after 30-40min, but how was in reality???
Hi,
I played Hanau afternoon and the sappers were in good place in the French army and allies _ Why :?: :?: :?:
Oster
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Russian sources:
1) Plan of the battle of Borodine 26 August (September 7) 1812. (Original location). Spb., .Ilyin, [the last third of the 19th century] Lithography in the mat. Print size: 23 x 38.2 cm. Mat size: 47.9 x 54.5 cm. Excellent state of preservation.
The plan is a worksheet No. 22 of the "School Atlas of Russian history" E.e. Zamyslovskogo (1841-1896). The Atlas was considered before the revolution the best mapping tutorial on Russian history. He passed the three editions (1865, 1869 and 1887); the last edition was accompanied by a book with an explanatory text.
The plan presented to the podmoskovnaâ area in the suburbs of Borodino, where the main and bloodiest battle of the Patriotic War of 1812, shows the disposition of Russian forces and the troops of Napoleon, the primary placement, strategic and tactical conceptions of the commanders of both sides. Each major unit has its own title. For the French forces are the names of marshals, commanders of the Corps. The dramatic events unfolded around the villages and the villages of Doronino, Ševardino, Utica, Fomkino, Aleksejki, Valuev, Semenovskaya, Knâz′kovo, slides, Zahar′ino, Bezzubovo, Loginovo, new, small, Atčenkovo, Psarevo, Tatarinovo, Uspenskoe, Ilyinskoe, Maslov.
Köhler Zamyslovskij – large Russian historian, Member of Russian geographical society, PhD, Professor of Petersburg University, Member of the Academy of Sciences, Professor of the Alexander Lyceum. Lectures on the history of the heir to the throne Nikolay Aleksandrovichu and Grand Princes.
In 1865, the Ministry of education has been declared a competition named Peter the great on the establishment of a training manual, which includes information on the history of St. Petersburg, as the capital of Russia. Working on the development of Atlas, E.e. Zamyslovskij not only used the already known science information, but also conducted various studies on the historical geography of Russia. In 1884 Atlas of E.e. Zamyslovskogo was awarded The prize of the academic Committee of the Ministry of national education and still remains a very important tool for the study of historical geography. Another such work did not appear.
The Atlas was published the best Russian enterprise engaged in production of maps, Cartographic school a. Rollin. The company, which started production at two hand-held machines, quickly reached the world level and before the revolution was supplying maps all over Russia. The products was high quality, has gained recognition at the international exhibitions and was awarded several medals.
(cost - 15000 rubles) - (http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4706/3845413.2/0_5de07_abdc3fde_orig)
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Russian artillery at Borodino, you can see all batterys with name of commanders - http://www.adjudant.ru/cadet/065.htm (ftp://http://www.adjudant.ru/cadet/065.htm)
Articles about Borodino battle:
Pronin A.V. - http://www.coldwar.ru/rvo/092010/russkie-stjajali-pravo-bit-nepobedimimi.php (ftp://http://www.coldwar.ru/rvo/092010/russkie-stjajali-pravo-bit-nepobedimimi.php)
Khlestkin - http://www.voskres.ru/army/library/khlestkin.htm (ftp://http://www.voskres.ru/army/library/khlestkin.htm)
Grunberg - http://www.museum.ru/1812/Library/Grunberg1/index.html (ftp://http://www.museum.ru/1812/Library/Grunberg1/index.html)
Kazantzev - Strength and loss of armies in Borodino - http://www.museum.ru/1812/Library/Kazantsev2/index.html (ftp://http://www.museum.ru/1812/Library/Kazantsev2/index.html)
Russian OOB - http://www.borodino.ru/index.php?page=content&DocID=5747&__CM3__CM3=ec469ke3om46jjpj16l68jbiv2 (ftp://http://www.borodino.ru/index.php?page=content&DocID=5747&__CM3__CM3=ec469ke3om46jjpj16l68jbiv2)
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Damn, links not work!!! :evil:
To see information just copy and paste links in your search line! ;)
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Thanks, huge map :shock:
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Thank you very much, Jacquinot, for this wonderful map and the russian links.
The only one I knew is that of museum.ru.
I will read these informations.
Good luck for Borodino !
Théo
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You can download updated scenario here - https://rapidshare.com/files/226809819/BorodinoHistUpdate.zip (https://rapidshare.com/files/226809819/BorodinoHistUpdate.zip)
Warning!!!
If you want to play with historical orders during the battle, better to detach all units to exclude unconditioned actions, this need only if you want play full simulation of battle.
Historical orders at 6.00
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You can download updated scenario here - https://rapidshare.com/files/226809819/BorodinoHistUpdate.zip (https://rapidshare.com/files/226809819/BorodinoHistUpdate.zip)
Recently, Rapidshare no longer offers a free download.
So I can't download the file.
Someone has a solution? (other than subscription)
Yves
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Recently, Rapidshare no longer offers a free download.
So I can't download the file.
No problem for me today 8)
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Recently, Rapidshare no longer offers a free download.
So I can't download the file.
Someone has a solution? (other than subscription)
Yves
You can download it free on Russian site - http://narod.ru/disk/22410389001/BorodinoHistUpdate.zip.html (http://narod.ru/disk/22410389001/BorodinoHistUpdate.zip.html)
Just click on link in window, if you don't understand you can translate page with google translator.
Post your observations and remarks, maybe need to change something, if all runs fine i am upload this scenario in depot.
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Very nice work, great! :shock: Thank you! ;)
_________________
Très beau travail, grandiose! :shock: Merci ! ;)
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Très bon travail mon cher Jaquinot... !!
Vous allez devenir un expert de la bataille de Borodino... :)
Peut être aurons nous l'occasion de nous rencontrer sur cette carte un de ces jours... ;)
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Very good work my dear Jaquinot… !!
You will become an expert of the battle of Borodino… :)
Will have us to it occasion can be to meet us on this chart one of these days… ;)
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Très bon travail mon cher Jaquinot... !!
Vous allez devenir un expert de la bataille de Borodino... :)
Peut être aurons nous l'occasion de nous rencontrer sur cette carte un de ces jours... ;)
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Very good work my dear Jaquinot… !!
You will become an expert of the battle of Borodino… :)
Will have us to it occasion can be to meet us on this chart one of these days… ;)
You want play on-line on this map with me?
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Hello Jacquinot,
Unable to do something serious with my domestic problems, I spend more time at the Tavern than on the battlefields ....
If you watch the French Tavern for the last weeks, you'll see a lot of old movies pictures and posters - an amazing international collection for those interested in forgotten movies....
Do you know the charming hussar (?) on these pics :?:
Only some rare russian movies had an audience in France in this period and few Russian actors were known out of specialists world...
Anyway, a regiment of these brand is a glamorous addition on the tabletop ;)
Oster
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Hello Jacquinot,
Unable to do something serious with my domestic problems, I spend more time at the Tavern than on the battlefields ....
If you watch the French Tavern for the last weeks, you'll see a lot of old movies pictures and posters - an amazing international collection for those interested in forgotten movies....
Do you know the charming hussar (?) on these pics :?:
Only some rare russian movies had an audience in France in this period and few Russian actors were known out of specialists world...
Anyway, a regiment of these brand is a glamorous addition on the tabletop ;)
Oster
Of course i know, name of film is "Hussar's balad", actor is woman she's name is Larisa Golubkina. Film was based on real events, in Russian army in 1812 one hussar was woman. ;)
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Ha, specialist for everything in 1812 :!:
Now, where are you going to introduce her in the playground ?
Another impossible task for Bibouba ;)
Larisa looks young on the pictures, do you know when the movie was realized ( soviet era or after ?)
I remember one movie of the 50's which was a great success in France ( maybe Festival de Cannes ) with a gorgeous young lady, cast as a sniper and shooting her lover at end :?: ....the french title was something about the flight of the storks = "quand passent les cigognes" ????,
but foreign movies usually receive unlikely titles here !
Thanks for the info,
Oster
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Ha, specialist for everything in 1812 :!:
Now, where are you going to introduce her in the playground ?
Another impossible task for Bibouba ;)
Larisa looks young on the pictures, do you know when the movie was realized ( soviet era or after ?)
I remember one movie of the 50's which was a great success in France ( maybe Festival de Cannes ) with a gorgeous young lady, cast as a sniper and shooting her lover at end :?: ....the french title was something about the flight of the storks = "quand passent les cigognes" ????,
but foreign movies usually receive unlikely titles here !
Thanks for the info,
Oster
Film was made in 1962 year.
Hussar woman - http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0,_%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B0_%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0,_%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B0_%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0)
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Of course i know, name of film is "Hussar's balad", actor is woman she's name is Larisa Golubkina. Film was based on real events, in Russian army in 1812
Ps Jacquinot,
Wiki international gives a lot on his movies dept !
Unfortunately the glamorous hussar is now a lady of my age :roll: too bad, if you know the song " old soldiers will never die" it'ld be the same for such beauties !
The other one was also an Anna Karenine to remember ...and the french title looks fair ( if crane=storcks=cigognes) ;)
oster
Ps : thanks for the new link, i'll go there at once :)
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Ps Jacquinot,
Wiki international gives a lot on his movies dept !
Unfortunately the glamorous hussar is now a lady of my age :roll: too bad, if you know the song " old soldiers will never die" it'ld be the same for such beauties !
The other one was also an Anna Karenine to remember ...and the french title looks fair ( if crane=storcks=cigognes) ;)
oster
Ps : thanks for the new link, i'll go there at once :)
Old soldiers of old guard never die ;)
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The true story is very interesting -despite the translation which is almost javanese- :mrgreen:
The link to the museum is fine also , but what is a Bath "black" ? a sauna ?
Thanks,
Oster
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The true story is very interesting -despite the translation which is almost javanese- :mrgreen:
The link to the museum is fine also , but what is a Bath "black" ? a sauna ?
Thanks,
Oster
Black bath it is bath with stove without flue. ;)
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6.00 - 6.30
1) Grand battery open artillery barrage.
2) Delzons division attack Borodino village.
3) Poles march to Utitza.
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6.30 - 7.00
1) Companas breaks to southern fleche.
2) Lunette is taken.
3) Russian grenadier go to counterattack.
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6.30 - 7.30
1) Dessaix skirmish in the Utitza wood.
2) Russian cuirassiers clash with Davout light cavalry.
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Splendid pictures of Superproduction movie with billions $ :D
Just impossible to wait for the 1/1 ?
Verey good job to help waiting the Big One ;)
Oster
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Hello,
Here you'ld find some interesting french ladies of the era ;)
Hop you'll understand something with the translation....
Oster
http://gdif.forumactif.com/t337-les-femmes-aux-armees (http://gdif.forumactif.com/t337-les-femmes-aux-armees)
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Hello,
Here you'ld find some interesting french ladies of the era ;)
Hop you'll understand something with the translation....
Oster
http://gdif.forumactif.com/t337-les-femmes-aux-armees (http://gdif.forumactif.com/t337-les-femmes-aux-armees)
Thanks for sharing.
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Merci pour ce lien sympathique Oster1815. :)
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Très intéressant, en effet... ;)
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Thanks for sharing.
Another one for 1812 fanaticus but I guess you'ld know it.....
and another beautiful actress ;)
There are lot of shortcuts, music etc...on Youtube for this movie , everything in Polish :shock:
Enjoy,
Oster
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Jacquinot, another question, please :|
Hussards.jpg (11.58 Ko, 160x213 - vu 8 fois.)
« Dernière édition: Aujourd'hui a 12:04:19 par tof »
Tof found this poster and link, but we are unable to find any info if it is a movie in process or something else :shock:
Do you saw it before ? thanks ;)
Oster
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Sorry Jacquinot,
My question was inappropriate : the poster is for an advertisement of multimedia firm "Orange" :mrgreen:
Here an amazing poster for War and Peace with the book well positionned...for an American audience it is seldom displayed - or this poster was for other countries ?
The other one is unknown and I try to find more about it ;)
Oster
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Jacquinot, another question, please :|
Tof found this poster and link, but we are unable to find any info if it is a movie in process or something else :shock:
Do you saw it before ? thanks ;)
Oster
Never see before.
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Jacquinot, thanks for searching,
Hussards is nothing, but for the "Devil's Disciple" I found it is an adaptation for G.B. Shaw about the American Independance.
The french title was totally different and I think it was not a success here.
So, nothing more for Borodino - but the Polish movie was about 1812 ;)
Oster
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Some nice paintings about great battle:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4518/3845413.3/0_5f315_8bd5c822_orig)
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4519/3845413.3/0_5f314_ae08a586_orig)
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5812/3845413.3/0_5f313_3c4bdf69_orig)
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very nice !!! ;)
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Très belle toile, mon cher Jaquinot ! Merci pour ça... ;)
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Wow... impressive
Jaquinot : Are you playing with a HDR mod?
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Very nice, thanks !!! ;)
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Wow... impressive
Jaquinot : Are you playing with a HDR mod?
What is HDR mod?
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Ok nevermind
I thought you were playing with a HDR mod because your pictures didn't looked like the game.
It's a mod that add high dynamic range imaging to the game you put it in. This mod works with every game.
Here is what the mod looks like on GTA 4 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoP8VN3JnqU
(the video start with HDR on. Then at 22 seconds he turn it off)
Homepage : http://enbdev.com/index_en.html
Download link : http://enbdev.com/enbseries_gta4_v0079sora.zip
1. You just have to put the mod into the histwar main folder.
2. Open the game, then press Shift+F12
3. Enjoy!
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If for Davout was possible,i do not see the problem.
I think he had examined the maps
Maybe not that road to south,perhaps another way.
But now who knows which way he had in mind ?
Seems that Davout personally visited the ground the day before.
Anyway,for curiosity, i tried a solo mode both side the battle with Davout at left flank of russians and the battle end with a draw.
For Davout is not so easy advance .
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I tried with this start deploy
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I tried with this start deploy
very nice! - looks great!
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It is original Scenarios created by Jacquinot.
I only moved Davout at left russian flank.
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I tried with this start deploy
It is old version! Try with my last trial version which adapted for Nix Borodino buildings mod.
http://www.histwar.org/mods/file.php?id=189 (http://www.histwar.org/mods/file.php?id=189)
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It is old version! Try with my last trial version which adapted for Nix Borodino buildings mod.
even better ;)
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So , seems more easy , if i put Dovout more east of russian corp.
But it is plausibile that in the night , none notice of the passage of Davout ?
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Seems that Davout personally visited the ground the day before.
I think not, in Russia we have one important document - French sketch map which was made by general Mouton one day befor battle, as you can see Frenchmans know nothing about Russian left flank before battle!!! Look an notice in right top corner - "Here Poles led by his noble met a hidden enemy". Frenchmans know nothing about Tuchkov's corps!
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Yes , you have already told me this.
But now it is the second book, where i read that Davout visited personally the ground at left russian flanck.
Chandler and now i am reading Anka Muhlstein 'Napoleon to Moscow'.
Napoleon the day before send also 'expert men' to update his maps where they can go,it is clear .
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So , seems more easy , if i put Dovout more east of russian corp.
But it is plausibile that in the night , none notice of the passage of Davout ?
I think Cossacks outposts immediately inform general Kutusov about this maneuver and Russian army leave Borodino field.
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I think that you are right..
It is for this reason that Napoleon do not agree at Davout plan.
For Naploeon do not like to weaken the center and has fear that ,if Davout discoverd,the russian go away yet.
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Grouchy's advance -
1. Destroy Tuchkov's corps.
2. Attack Russian artillery reserve.
I see one problem for this maneuver - all area covered in brushwood, i don't know it is possible to move artillery in brushwood?
What do you think Alf?
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From your own maps and paintings, those brushwoods are not very thick, they probably slow moves but not stop them....
It is possible to watch actual movies from WWI and even WWII, with guns horsedrawns . I also saw real ACW pieces in reenactement closely...
They move at an amazing speed ( in emergency ) and on very broken ground when necessary. They were only stopped by thick woods or hedges and by straight cuts, and the gun teams managed to clear paths in wooden bareers or push a fallen tree aside quickly.
The guns like french 75mm or german 77 or ACW "Napoleon " had also limbers and spiked wheels and the gross weight was about the same as average 8pdrs... So, I 'ld call it difficult /slowing ground but not impossible ;)
Oster
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From your own maps and paintings, those brushwoods are not very thick, they probably slow moves but not stop them....
It is possible to watch actual movies from WWI and even WWII, with guns horsedrawns . I also saw real ACW pieces in reenactement closely...
They move at an amazing speed ( in emergency ) and on very broken ground when necessary. They were only stopped by thick woods or hedges and by straight cuts, and the gun teams managed to clear paths in wooden bareers or push a fallen tree aside quickly.
The guns like french 75mm or german 77 or ACW "Napoleon " had also limbers and spiked wheels and the gross weight was about the same as average 8pdrs... So, I 'ld call it difficult /slowing ground but not impossible ;)
Oster
Maybe Davout was right, but he must move troops at night on unknown and overgrown area and unnoticeable for Russians. :?
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Grouchy's advance -
1. Destroy Tuchkov's corps.
2. Attack Russian artillery reserve.
I see one problem for this maneuver - all area covered in brushwood, i don't know it is possible to move artillery in brushwood?
What do you think Alf?
Yes , in this version is more easy , but reserve art is very danger for Davout advance.
but i have tried only old vesion....
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Maybe Davout was right, but he must move troops at night on unknown and overgrown area and unnoticeable for Russians. :?
Yes , the cosacks are everywhere.Follow how a shadow french movements.
I do not think that Davout can moves without to be discovered, also in the night.
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Yes , in this version is more easy , but reserve art is very danger for Davout advance.
but i have tried only old vesion....
I think Russian art reserve easy target for Grouchy's cavalry corps without support.
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Yes , the cosacks are everywhere.Follow how a shadow french movements.
I do not think that Davout can moves without to be discovered, also in the night.
That maybe, but who knows.
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Maybe Davout was right, but he must move troops at night on unknown and overgrown area and unnoticeable for Russians
Night is probably the real problem, specially with artillery :!:
I don't think of many examples of moving large bodies of troops at night, in almost unknown country...even with a Davout leading ;)
Oster
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Night is probably the real problem, specially with artillery :!:
I don't think of many examples of moving large bodies of troops at night, in almost unknown country...even with a Davout leading ;)
Oster
I trust to Davout, he best!
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Don't forget he was the only marshall to wear spectacles !
and not the Infra-red model ... ;)
Oster
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In reality Davout want to take 1st and 5th corps, but maybe Napoleon should give to davout Grouchy's corps and some divisions of 1st corps, it would be a small diversion group which can destroy Tuchkov's corps and crush Bagration's army at left flank.
Maybe small group was unnoticeable in night???
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Don't forget he was the only marshall to wear spectacles !
and not the Infra-red model ... ;)
Oster
He was sole invincible marshall of Napoleon's army, like Suvorov in Russian army.
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С Новым Годом
Vodka , Kaviar and roll 6 on every dice :!: :!: :!:
Oster ;)
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Ñ Íîâûì Ãîäîì
Vodka , Kaviar and roll 6 on every dice :!: :!: :!:
Oster ;)
Thank you Oster!
Happy New HistWar Year to you!!! ;)
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I would like to thank Jaquinot for his historical research of this famous battle :p
i have an issue with this scenario,when i set the game player vs player and i try to give orders before the battle to each corp,like for example asking to Davout or Poniatowski to march with their corp to the enemy,nothing happen,even after i waited for 20 minutes both armies are basically standing in front of each other...
i wonder if you had the same problem,am i doing something wrong? please give me a help to understand about this issue.
regards.