HistWar
HistWar (international zone) => Communities => MODs => Discussion démarrée par: bibouba le 21 novembre 2010, 16:59:20 pm
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EricJ and I are proud to present you the Belgium Campaign 1815.
Soon on your favorite game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LYm9v9tvrc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LYm9v9tvrc)
Enjoy
PS: better view in HD
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VERY promissing!
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Excellent, can't wait to fight it MP :D
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did you notice the scots ;) I like their soaks.
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Great! I can't wait..... :mrgreen: Really love your video and work!!!
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:shock:
Wow!!! Looks great guys! (I even see my favorite Royal horse artillery uniforms! :mrgreen:)
Looking forward to this!
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Start with presenting some troops.
Today we start with Brunswick:
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3986/lgdn2010112719160552.jpg) (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/lgdn2010112719160552.jpg/)
Guards
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3359/lgdn2010112819483174.jpg) (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/lgdn2010112819483174.jpg/)
Line infantry
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2089/lgdn2010112810083434.jpg) (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/lgdn2010112810083434.jpg/)
Hussars
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1914/lgdn2010112818505775.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/i/lgdn2010112818505775.jpg/)
Uhlans
(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6099/lgdn2010112819392961.jpg) (http://img403.imageshack.us/i/lgdn2010112819392961.jpg/)
Avant guarde
EricJ and I whish you the best.
Rgds
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Whouaooo!
Very nice ;)
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Great, great, great, great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:
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And the Prussians are coming too :
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Lovely!!!!! :shock:
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Great !
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Superbe, je prenais déjà beaucoup de plaisir avec le mod peninsula.
Magnificent, I enjoyed the peninsula mod.
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VERY GOOD!
Will the Prussians be added to the OOB as well to include earlier years up to 1815
or just as a stand alone for this new mod ?
VERY GOOD INDEED !
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Hello,
the Prussians will be available initially for the 1815 campaign alone, but it is expected to extend the Prussian modd to the years 1813 and 1814. Once the scenarios of the campaign in 1815 published, I will complete this modd with the changes that occurred in the Prussian army between 1812 and 1815. I intend to use this modd for new scenarios on the campaign of 1814 in France (the maneuver Montmirail for example).
But for now, the only priority is the campaign of 1815! :smile: :evil:
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Good news, but personnally, I am far more interested in 1813 -1814 Prussians !
1815 has been done SOOOOOO often, it gets boring...
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Cher voisin DominiqueT,
Que diriez vous de Leipzig ?
Eylauhurricane, Théodoricus et moi même étudions la possibilité de vous l'offrir en 2011 !
Glaude1955
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Hello DominiqueT,
With Bibouba and Bussy (and even JMM !!!), we work hard to provide you this modd on the 1815 campaign. So we sincerely hope that you will not get bored with! You will judge for yourself from here very shortly.
About other scenarios, it will be time to speak about it very soon, on other topics... HistWar is a remarkable game that allows us to modd many wars and campaigns ... We just need more time, please be patient!
EricJ
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May I ask EricJ if the Belgium Campaign Mod is going to be available before the 31th ?
Thanks a lot
Andrea
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We will try to give you the 4 battles for the 31st or the 1st of january as new year gift.
We worked hard for this modd and we still have a little issue but we are confident. JMM help us a lot and he spend a lot of time to give us the opportunity for this particular mod.
After that in january you will have 2 cpaign :
the first one with 4bras and ligny at the same time,
the second one waterloo with wavre.
I hope you will enjoy.
Best regards.
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Great,
thanks again
I think this is going to become the Game
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Que des bonnes nouvelles, vivement l'année prochaine :!:
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:lol: L'idée de jouer enfin l'armée prussienne avec son mélange de troupes de ligne et de landwehr me ravi. Si je peux me permettre, soignez l'ambiance sonore, car lancer ses colonnes en entendant siffler les boulets, ou lancer des lignes de homards au son de la cornemuse, participe largement au plaisir de ce jeu.
Pour ma part, j'attends surtout l'IA divisionnaire.
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J'ai passé beaucoup de temps pour les musiques et le son. J'espère qu'ils vous satisfairont.
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To EricJ
THANK YOU SANTA !!! :lol: :lol:
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Chargé et joué. Superbe ! Les prussiens sont magnifiques et les highlanders enfin en kilt.
Quant aux évolutions de Peninsula, je joue la bataille d'Orthez, et je me fais une petite vidéo du 32ème de ligne du général Taupin (le vrai).
Est ce que quelqu'un s'est lancé dans la bataille d'Aire sur l'Adour qui suit celle d'Orthez ?
Lauded and played. Great ! Prussians are magnificents and Highland troops are finally wearing the kilt.
With the Peninsula mod evolutions, I play the battle of Orthez, and I'll watch the brave 32nd line rgt commanded by the general Taupin (the real one).
Is someone began to realise the Aire sur l'Adour battle wich follow the Orthez one ?
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Un remerciement en forme de clin d'oeil pour ce fabuleux mod ;)
Le moment longtemps attendu arrive enfin grâce à HW et au Mod: les troupes de D'Erlon franchissent le chemin creux (déserté par ses défenseurs fixés sur la gauche par la garde et le corps de Reille).
Les Prussiens arrivent mais sont attendus de pied ferme par les troupes de Mouton :evil:
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After the wonderful work you have done, a small question: When will be released the two campaigns? :mrgreen:
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Anybody have save file with historical orders durin the full battle, please? I want play historical version but dontunderstand where i must place de Erlon battarys to start bombardment!
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Anybody have save file with historical orders durin the full battle, please? I want play historical version but dontunderstand where i must place de Erlon battarys to start bombardment!
Hello,
Don't have a save file but if you want to make your own historical deployment, you can look at this map which i believe is accurate ;)
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Hello,
Don't have a save file but if you want to make your own historical deployment, you can look at this map which i believe is accurate ;)
Yes i saw this map in internet,but this map elevations are different with elevations on bibuoba map.
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Furthermore, it's difficult to know exactly how many guns from the other corps (guard) were in the "grande batterie" additionally to those of d'Erlon...
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Furthermore, it's difficult to know exactly how many guns from the other corps (guard) were in the "grande batterie" additionally to those of d'Erlon...
I found only one place where i think Napoleon can put grand battery, but i dont know is that historical or not.
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Grand Batterie 54 guns.
Unique line on half slope of Belle Alliance.
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I found only one place where i think Napoleon can put grand battery, but i dont know is that historical or not.
From what i've read on the topic, the charge of the British heavy cav against d'Erlon went to the battery.
An hypothesis is the following...
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Grand Batterie 54 guns.
Unique line on half slope of Belle Alliance.
On half slope infront Belle Alliance? Right?
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From what i've read on the topic, the charge of the British heavy cav against d'Erlon went to the battery.
An hypothesis is the following...
Yes, but no hills in this area to place the artillery on satellite map! Strange thing yea?
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On your picture, it looks like there are small hills on these two points for the battery.
Do you think it's a possibility?
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So, says my book.
Shots at center of enemy positions,many guns of 12 pounds
For me is right that on the left.
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On your picture, it looks like there are small hills on these two points for the battery.
Do you think it's a possibility?
If im place battary on your left black line it was to far from enemy line to open fire, and on right black line no hills its just slope of enemy hill, you can see it in 3d mode. So where the battary place? :D
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So, says my book.
Shots at center of enemy positions,many guns of 12 pounds
For me is right that on the left.
Please show where.
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On left where says thilio.
Near Belle Alliance,shot at center....
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When i play at the game "Waterloo Napoleons last battle" i remembre long hill on Napoleons left flang where i put grand battary and where de Erlons corps form in colums to attack, but where this hill on this map????????????
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On left where says thilio.
Near Belle Alliance,shot at center....
No hills there and to far from enemy line to open fire.
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No hills there and to far from enemy line to open fire.
We have to think battle 200 years ago,satellite is now and can be much different.
My book says that shots at a distance of 1000 meters,and says that not good precision sometimes only moral effect.
But for 12 pounds ,what is good distance for LG?
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If we see true historical map (thilio post #34) and scale of 1000 mt .Seems right.
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We have to think battle 200 years ago,satellite is now and can be much different.
My book says that shots at a distance of 1000 meters,and says that not good precision sometimes only moral effect.
But for 12 pounds ,what is good distance for LG?
Im place battary on that black line and i think its not bad positions, i think elevations from "Waterloo Napoleon last battle' game just different from original satellite.
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If we see true historical map (thilio post #34) and scale of 1000 mt .Seems right.
Yes seems right, thanks to all for help.
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When i play at the game "Waterloo Napoleons last battle" i remembre long hill on Napoleons left flang where i put grand battary and where de Erlons corps form in colums to attack, but where this hill on this map????????????
Yes, i agree.
In the game WNLB it is easy to find a hill for the great battery at the level of D'Erlon's line of battle.
Maybe we can find a response in other books on the battle
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For me is put how red line (more or less)
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Yes, i agree.
In the game WNLB it is easy to find a hill for the great battery at the level of D'Erlon's line of battle.
Maybe we can find a response in other books on the battle
I think your right black line is that hill, look at my picture at prevorius post.
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For me is put how red line (more or less)
I think thilio black line most correctly
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In one of my book:
battery was in front of the road between Belle-Alliance and La Marache, at 800 m of the British left wing.
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Yes , now i saw a pic on my book , and is put on the right on Haye Sainte.
Then is right black line of thilio ,perhaps a bit on the left.
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Yes , now i saw a pic on my book , and is put on the right on Haye Sainte.
Then is right black line of thilio ,perhaps a bit on the left.
Thilio black line is right position, agree.
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Artillery deployment in my view
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Very interesting and documented discussion on the topic (but in French) 8)
http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/article/Waterloo__la_grande_batterie/11021709
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The new hypothesis after reading this article...
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The new hypothesis after reading this article...
Looks fine but on satellite map no hill in this area look at contour lines on your map your battary in low place, contour line 120 its a hill to the south at your line , my variant with some change in Hugomount:
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Just finished a solo Quatre Bras battle as Ney against the Allied AI using version 02f. I'm impressed at the greatly improved gameplay from prior versions. I played in Grognard mode to make it more challenging. My orders went where they were supposed to go, the dispatches and reco reports came in as they should, and my CinC moved around the battle field where I told him to go (unlike before, when the Cinc would sometimes just lock in place for the entire battle). My French corps commanders did an excellent job of deploying. The artillery batteries were aggressive and very effective. And my cavalry waged a fluid cat-and-mouse battle with light infantry around the woods on the west flank. Reinforcements showed up and played useful roles in the battle. Result was a decisive French victory -- even though at the end I was still outnumbered in total CEH. I think the victory was due to successful maneuver, and a morale collapse, since I inflicted only slightly more losses (13%) than I took (9% I think). The Allied forces along the N mapedge to the East remained passive and did nothing to support their W wing. Lots of fun -- this is a great and highly playable game now!
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Yes, but as you can see on the attached picture, what we call hill is only a small elevation.
It's easy to imagine that the ground topography may have change since 200 years.
source:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Panorama_waterloo.jpg
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Yes, but as you can see on the attached picture, what we call hill is only a small elevation.
It's easy to imagine that the ground topography may have change since 200 years.
source:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Panorama_waterloo.jpg
Of course can change but a little i think, on area where hill on your map i see lowplace, where the hill?
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Panorama elevations is different to Satellite map and your old map elevations, somthing wrong.
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Of course can change but a little i think, on area where hill on your map i see lowplace, where the hill?
Yes, it's strange...
When you look at the picture in the direction of the Belle-Alliance, a small hill is visible on the right of the road but not clearly on the left, at the place where the battery was supposed to be ;)
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When i work at Borodino map i cant found Shevardino hill and Grand Redoubt hill on satellite map and im add this hills by my hand, like i saw they in nature, i think satellite surveying of heights have some errors because of scale i think.
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The map must look like this:
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Of course can change but a little i think, on area where hill on your map i see lowplace, where the hill?
Also, I've read that the mound where the modern-day monument stands wasn't there historically -- I hope you took that out of the topography for the battlefield.
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Also, I've read that the mound where the modern-day monument stands wasn't there historically -- I hope you took that out of the topography for the battlefield.
Read my previous post about Borodino map, Shevardino barrow and Grand redoubt barrow was are very small objekts to satellite geodesy and Lion monument too i think.
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Waterloo field elevations from googlemaps:
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Looking at the two maps of post #57, maybe you can see the difference between the 1815 topography and google map :p
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My satellite map 10 km of Waterloo,posted because I see some little difference.
So continue to discuss , is interesting.
(build how usual with Google earth,srtm,scilab etc)
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My satellite map 10 km of Waterloo,posted because I see some little difference.
So continue to discuss , is interesting.
(build how usual with Google earth,srtm,scilab etc)
Yes this map like in "Waterloo Napoleon last battle" game, i recognise elevations.
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the map that I ve mad for the waterloo mod is the satellite map.
But if you can done a better one would be nice too.
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This all very interesting but it seems to be in the wrong Forum. Maybe JMM should make a new Forum for "Campaigns" :idea:
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the map that I ve mad for the waterloo mod is the satellite map.
But if you can done a better one would be nice too.
Hi Bibouba, i think you make some mistakes in calculation for scilab, chek your scilab parameters. The boors, lakes and rivers must be in lowplaces, on your waterloo map boors placed not in the lap, when i draw broors from "googlemaps" on satellite map im allways chek that broors must be in laps, eo ipso im chek rightness of elevation.
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Waterloo map with Alfiere elevations vs thilio map:
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Using Jacquinot map with my reliefs.
pic 3 with bibouba map (is not parallel to the horizon line) from the same position.
Bibouba has made a great good work,but the map has something that not work,perhaps is better a remake of the map ?
Only a suggestion bibouba,you decide.
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I m open to all the map try the better one. I ve also multiply by 0.3 the elevation to have the same feeling when I m for real on the battlefield.
Just put more vegetation and field.
You can also work on the oob. I can send you a scan of all the troops who have participate to the battle.
Here, in the mod, 20 .000 prussian are missing and there few french artillery regiment present which had no participate to the battle. They were there at the begining of the battle but Napy decide tu put them in reserve at les quatre bras.
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French deploy on Alfiere map and Napoleon command post:
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Hi bibouba.
We know how much time you have spent for waterloo scenarios and we recognize your merits.
We (Jacquinot and i) want say to you that the map is available if you want.
If you want take a look at map ,send to me your e-mail with a PM and we are glad to send it.
Tell us if you want a map only with satellite reliefs and Carte.bmp or complete with vegetation.
Then you decide if use it in Belgium Campaign (MOD) or not.
Hello
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you can join "les aigles" for the mod and add the second waterloo map with your own odb. I prefere that you take the one with with vegetation
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Hi bibouba
You are tell me how to use the mod with a different map?
please tell me step by step
1)you can join "les aigles" for the mod
.......................
2)and add the second waterloo map with your own odb
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thank you very much ,if you want reply.
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You can make a test with the existing oob and you map (commanding the both corps) to see if troops are placed or notIf they are not, yuo have to place them on the map and save the positions.
Can you explaim me exatly where do you have problems ?
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Thank for reply.
If I start LG in both side with my map and waterloo OOB ,i have a little problem how Jacquinot 5 post ago (post #78).
There is a line of English trops above in the border without CC.
A curiosity,do you know, where ,when we save deployment is update OOB or the map?
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Sorry i have found CC,was under another CC and i do not saw it.
There is no more problem.
Hello
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and to do a scenario take the present one of the mod, then rename it and inside the scnerio change the name of the map and of your oob. As I allready said, I didn't find for the solution for the moment to introduce more prussian troops.
If someone wana try to make a better oob I can send him all my documentation (let me a private message with your mail).
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Thank you for informations,very useful.
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Waterloo Alfiere-Jacquinot variant. The battle make very impressive, troops stand very close to each other like in reality, is real scare think to stay infront grand battary :D Post your comments and suggestions.
Pictures:
1) Battle plan
2) View from Napoleon command post
3) View from Welington command post
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Nice work, thanks!
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It s a little bit a pity that you start the game with the great battery. But I like very much the other deployments.
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It s a little bit a pity that you start the game with the great battery. But I like very much the other deployments.
Do you think at 11.30 the grand battary was not arranged?
I have some problem with that scenari, the troops are very close to each other about 800 - 900m, the AI all time give unauthorized orders, do you know how switch off corps AI without units detaching?
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Im insert some changes in scenari, i enlarge distance between gun battarys in grand battary that d Erlons infantry can without difficulty go through the battary to attack English line, now all looks fine, only problems with unauthorized AI orders.
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Maybe you can show a picture with batallion rather than NATO representation.
It's more easy to estimate precisely the distance between units ;)
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Maybe you can show a picture with batallion rather than NATO representation.
It's more easy to estimate precisely the distance between units ;)
Of course i can
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Tanks Jacquinot but what I mean is the map in F2 when you hit a second time F2...
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Tanks Jacquinot but what I mean is the map in F2 when you hit a second time F2...
F4 much better
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Always from by Barbero book
Napoleon post on the high near farm on Rossomme,where Jacquinot has placed Napo,with a chair and a table.
"He could see the entire horizon with a telescope"
"On the left Hougomont"
"On the right the little forest said of Paris or of Frishermont"
I am not very sure , in the 4 pic is Frischermont.
On 4th picture is Mornasart
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Sorry , thank Jacquinot.
Yes,is too far,is not possible to see.
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But theoretically ,he could see?
I draw a road with some heighs in meters.
Starting from 91 mt high with terrain that always decrease , only a point of 70 meters.
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Grand battary in action, as you can see most damge at French fire in first English line (Perponshet division), but main English forces save behind the hill, very good position to defence.
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Do you think at 11.30 the grand battary was not arranged?
Yes
The order of deployment of the great battery start at 11h30 till 13h00 where they started to fire.
Considering the excellent work of Adkin, my oob show the position at 11h30.
From this moment the great battery start to take position. Even so;e artillery regeiments of the guard didn't arrive before noon on the batttlefield.
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Yes
The order of deployment of the great battery start at 11h30 till 13h00 where they started to fire.
Considering the excellent work of Adkin, my oob show the position at 11h30.
From this moment the great battery start to take position. Even so;e artillery regeiments of the guard didn't arrive before noon on the batttlefield.
And d Erlon corps attack start at 14.00, right?
So for this deployment i must change battle starting time to 13.00?
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d Erlon attac between 13h30 and 14h00. So may be choose 13h45.
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Im start d Erlon attack at 12.30 and in14.oo "we win the battle, no we won the war" :D
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you should put ;ore field on the wellingtom right. Remeber the attack of the guard, the allies were hidden in the fields of wheat.
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Who knows how many 12pnd cannons was in Grand battary?
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the 3 battery of the guard. So in total: 18 canons of 12 pounds + 6 howitzers.
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Yes after the order of 11hr but they belong to the reserves of the 1, 2 and 6th corps.
The guard was still in movement to reach the battery and from the following source, it's possible they never reach the battery....
http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/article/Waterloo__la_grande_batterie/11021709
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Sorry , but i have not still understand where was palced the great battery.
If d'Erlon corps , looking at thilio historical map and enemy corp (near the main road),was at distance of 900 meters
how is possible hipothesis (post #57) that great battery placed at half way (500-600 meters)?
When all speaking of distance of 800 or also 1000 meters from enemy.
In addition , i do not see well thilio map , but seems there was a little road from Belle Alliance to Papelotte,to facilitate move the guns with muddy.
For me is 100 meter more advance d'Erlon corp or not?
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Sorry , but i have not still understand where was palced the great battery.
If d'Erlon corps , looking at thilio historical map and enemy corp (near the main road),was at distance of 900 meters
how is possible hipothesis (post #57) that great battery placed at half way (500-600 meters)?
When all speaking of distance of 800 or also 1000 meters from enemy.
For me is 100 meter before d'Erlon corp or not?
As suggested in the link of the previous post, if the battery was placed 100 meters before d'Erlon's corps (which correspond to 800-1000 meters), most of the guns and even the 12 pdrs would never be able to hit the ennemy troops because the maximal effective range was 900 for 12 pdrs and 700 for 6 pdrs.
It is suggested that most of the french authors placing the battery in front of d'Erlon's corps were wrong. The english authors often wrote the battery was much closer to their lines.
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Thank for reply,(reference in french is not the best for me) ,but i have also read that shooting with great battery had a psycologic effetc on moral rather that effective damage for enemy.
Remains difficult to digest this hypothesis for me.
Anyway thank thilio.
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The author gives also several references to english books that maybe we can find on internet.
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I see good move art on little road near d'Erlon corp and move go down for 100 mt .
Also with muddy is easy move 1 ton of 12 pdrs in light decrease.
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Yes after the order of 11hr but they belong to the reserves of the 1, 2 and 6th corps.
The guard was still in movement to reach the battery and from the following source, it's possible they never reach the battery....
http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/article/Waterloo__la_grande_batterie/11021709
So, what cannons was in battary and how many? Distance 500-600m to English line i think its right.
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I read on Russian forum about Waterloo that d Erlons corps go in marsh columns about 500m where stand grand battary, grand battary stop fire that let through d Erlons infantry, after that d Erlons infantry form in columns to attack, the distance from enemy line which they must to overcome was about 500-600m.
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There are too many version.
Someone speak distance d'Erlon - enemy center 1200 mt.
Seeing thilio map seems 900 mt.
Someone speaking of great battery 1000 mt ,but also of 800 meters.
But there are hipothesis until 500-600 meters.
Where is the truth?
All are rilevance differences,because very close.
In practice everyone is free to make own deployment.
All is good.
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Im use GooglErth and found only one good place for grnd battary, but i dont know what lenghty was battary because i dont know how many guns was in battary and what distance must be between the guns that infantry can go through guns.
Your consideration guys.
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Great work.
I have heard that a battery (8 guns) occupied a length of 100 mt.
But where is Belle Alliance in the pic ? in the down border ?
Someone speak of 80 guns , other of more 50 .
For 80 guns = 1000 mt (single row)
For 50 guns =600-700 mt
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Great work.
I have heard that a battery (8 guns) occupied a length of 100 mt.
But where is Belle Alliance in the pic ? in the down border ?
Belle Alliance in the down boarder where crossroads.
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But why not , the same line start from Belle Alliance ?
100 mt more in advance from d'Erlon Corp.
There are not good conditions?
You have not explained.
Only hipothesis is clear,only for discuss.
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Im use GooglErth and found only one good place for grnd battary, but i dont know what lenghty was battary because i dont know how many guns was in battary and what distance must be between the guns that infantry can go through guns.
Your consideration guys.
Thanks, very interesting map to see the ground. But like Alfiere, I cannot locate precisely the farms on this map (La haye Sainte, Belle Alliance, Mont-Saint jean, Papelotte,..).
Other descriptions of the battle in favor of the hypothesis of short distance grand battery are:
- the charge of heavy cav that rapidly reach the battery and well beyond before encountering the french line
- the number of ammunition and horses of the battery that should have been deployed along 400m deep so directly at the level of d'Erlon's line of concentration
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But why not , the same line start from Belle Alliance ?
100 mt more in advance from d'Erlon Corp.
There are not good conditions?
You have not explained.
Only hipothesis is clear,only for discuss.
If im be artillery officer in Napoleonic era i try to place cannons much closer to enemy if heights make it possible, in this position height make it possible, why i sould place cannons more faraway?
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Thanks, very interesting map to see the ground. But like Alfiere, I cannot locate precisely the farms on this map (La haye Sainte, Belle Alliance, Mont-Saint jean, Papelotte,..).
Other descriptions of the battle in favor of the hypothesis of short distance grand battery are:
- the charge of heavy cav that rapidly reach the battery and well beyond before encountering the french line
- the number of ammunition and horses of the battery that should have been deployed along 400m deep so directly at the level of d'Erlon's line of concentration
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Thanks, now it's clear.
It feats well with the panorama (post#60) ;)
I still in favor of this short hypothesis but agree we cannot have any certitude :?
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Great work.
I have heard that a battery (8 guns) occupied a length of 100 mt.
But where is Belle Alliance in the pic ? in the down border ?
Someone speak of 80 guns , other of more 50 .
For 80 guns = 1000 mt (single row)
For 50 guns =600-700 mt
For 500m is 40 guns i think its to little for name Grande :smile:
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Thanks, now it's clear.
It feats well with the panorama (post#60) ;)
I still in favor of this short hypothesis but agree we cannot have any certitude :?
Yes its feats well but 500m to short line for much number of cannons, somthing wrong.
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For the great battery i have always the same idea that was placed 100-200 mt more advance d'Erlon Corp.
The little road that start from La Belle Alliance is very important,because follow the formation of D'Erlon corp and sicurely was use to move the guns more easy with muddy go down with little decrease of terrain.
For deployment , i like how is placed in the thilio historical map and agree totally with it.
For bibouba OOB , I think that is better possible after his great work .
Now is time to talking about of main orders,maybe a list of Napo orders and Wellington orders ?
What do you think Jacquinot and others who are interested ?
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For the great battery i have always the same idea that was placed 100-200 mt more advance d'Erlon Corp.
The little road that start from La Belle Alliance is very important,because follow the formation of D'Erlon corp and sicurely was use to move the guns more easy with muddy go down with little decrease of terrain.
For deployment , i like how is placed in the thilio historical map and agree totally with it.
For bibouba OOB , I think that is better possible after his great work .
Now is time to talking about of main orders,maybe a list of Napo orders and Wellington orders ?
What do you think Jacquinot and others who are interested ?
The road from Belle Alliance is very important, but do you think small road full of mud can help to move cannons?
Yes its time to talk, what your book talk about orders?
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I prefer search a good site over internet , so is possible post with a copy a paste .(I think there is not problem,or not?)
Seems there is some little problems,perhaps is better write by hand what matters)
After that ,discuss how is possible execute in the battle.
After all , play a battle for simulation,maybe with some 'what if'
A good challenging task , but also interesting.
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Tow views from different positions: 1) From small road from BelleAlliance to Papilot. 2) From line like on my map.
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Yes , the second is better view, because is more close.
We can play a variant for the two version of great battery. So we are all happy.
But do you want play for allied or french ?
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Yes , the second is better view, because is more close.
We can play a variant for the two version of great battery. So we are all happy.
But do you want play for allied or french ?
For french of course, its too hard work to defend this plateau, im try play in solo and smash English left flang after 2 hours, but English cavalry attack very fast and dangerous, my infantry allways run back or stay in square. The key to win is good artillery barage that the most important thing is Grand battary place and number of guns. But we can play twice, one time you French one time me.
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And more, when i play i detach all units to exclude all unauthorized orders because troops so close to each other and AI allways doing some thing.
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tomorrow or tuesday I ll will send you the draw of the position of the great battery from Adkins. You will see the position. I use going to the battlefield and it s veru clear where is the place where the battery was deployed.
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tomorrow or tuesday I ll will send you the draw of the position of the great battery from Adkins. You will see the position. I use going to the battlefield and it s veru clear where is the place where the battery was deployed.
Very weel,finally we know where deployed.
Thank
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I found this site,is better to have only one source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo
Here speak of 80 guns , far to make damage.
Orders very restricted.(little map on site for orders)
11.30 Reille attack Hougumont (diversion) and Wellington defends with Guard.
13.00 Great battery start to shoots
13.30 d'Erlon attack english center-left wing
? Uxbrige counterattack d'Erlon
16.00 Cav Ney attack english center-right wing
17.30 Cav Kellerman attack english center-right wing
16.00 Bulow advance to Placenot
? Lobau move to Placenot to defend
19.00 Imperial Guard attack english center-right wing
19.30 Ziethen advance to Papelotte
Doubts : Ney cav and Lobau ?
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D'erlon attacks at 13h30. Great battery start at 13h00.
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Ok,already modify list orders .
Thank bibouba.
Now I think
1) wait bibouba great battery deploy.
2)add some guns to actual great battery until 80 guns. (from who we take ?)
3)remake deploy for great battery
4)upload scenario to depot how variant to bibouba work.
5)identify with pic the corps for restricted orders. (what we use for Lobau and Ney cav?)
When all is clear ,we can make the first battle.
what do you think ?
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position at 11h30:
(http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/8628/11h00.jpg) (http://img573.imageshack.us/i/11h00.jpg/)
at 13h00:
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7608/13h00.jpg) (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/13h00.jpg/)
I used the 11h30 position for the mod.
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Thank bibouba,then Great battery is more in advance from little road of Belle Alliance when shoots.
Seems right hypothesys of 500-600 meters.
80 guns (18 of 12 pdrs)
I see also Jacquinot in the deploy.
Hi Jacquinot,have you a white horse ?
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Thank bibouba,then Great battery is more in advance from little road of Belle Alliance when shoots.
Seems right hypothesys of 500-600 meters.
80 guns (18 of 12 pdrs)
I see also Jacquinot in the deploy.
Hi Jacquinot,have you a white horse ?
No just mazda6 but not white :smile:
Yes in bibuoba map grand battary like on my picture from googlerth and his line have similar lenght about 500m, but 80 cannons on 500m line is 4,25m between canons if cannon lenght about 2m, its very close, how d Erlons infantry can go through cannons? They must go through cannons and form in attack column infront of the cannons and it all under British fire at 600m, how they can do this in short time? I play in solo and in my Grand battary was only 50 cannons, but d Erlons infantry can not go through cannons they allways try to go round the battary!
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Ok,already modify list orders .
Thank bibouba.
Now I think
1) wait bibouba great battery deploy.
2)add some guns to actual great battery until 80 guns. (from who we take ?)
3)remake deploy for great battery
4)upload scenario to depot how variant to bibouba work.
5)identify with pic the corps for restricted orders. (what we use for Lobau and Ney cav?)
When all is clear ,we can make the first battle.
what do you think ?
Yes all good but how we will play, with attached units or with detachet? We still have problem with AI unauthorized orders.
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I do not know this problem,i have no try.
But think to play all battle with micromanagement is not good.
Tomorrow try with a speed test,using your deploy.
But line of 80 guns (bibouba map) seems 900-1000 mt ,there is a scale a little down of 500 mt.
I have seen on your map (googlearth) that after 500 mt there is a rilevant slope on the right.
Hello
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I do not know this problem,i have no try.
But think to play all battle with micromanagement is not good.
Tomorrow try with a speed test,using your deploy.
But line of 80 guns (bibouba map) seems 900-1000 mt ,there is a scale a little down of 500 mt.
I have seen on your map (googlearth) that after 500 mt there is a rilevant slope on the right.
Hello
Im play Borodino with micromanagement and have historical resoult and can simulate 80% historical orders during the battle, for Borodino like for Waterloo without division AI i think no another way.
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Yes slop to the right from battary, on bibuoba map like on my from google, battary ends where ends contour line 120 its about 500m for battary deploy.
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Bonjour Messrs.,
First, excellent diagrams! ... very instructive ... :)
Second, agreed, micromanagement no good for me either ... :x
Third, when I compare this to artillery at Verdun (approx. 100 years later), I am astounded beyond words ... :shock:
Cordialement, DoE
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Speed simulation without micromanagement with great battery how your deploy at 500-600 mt.
AI take control in pratice of all corps,after give order to diversion at Reille to Hougument,English Guard at once in defence.
After 1/2 - 1 hour ->all great battery destroy.
At 12.30 french losses 10 % english 2%
at 13.00 AI put d'Erlon in defence and situation more stable french losses 10% english 4%
Yes, AI take control (the two sides are very closed).
But for me great battery is too much near to enemy and is in very danger.
For me is too much complex detach all units to play battle,perhaps is better that you alone play battle in both side with restricted orders.
You are more accustomed to play with detach units.(you have already made a simulation with Borodino).
Please , at the end tell us how end your the battle.
Hello
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Dear all,
I am reading your discussion with interest.
The study of Adkins is very interesting but it seems he didn't read testimonies of people who were at Waterloo on the 18th june 1815.
For example, here is the testimony of Général Desalles who was chief of the artillery of the french Ist corps.
"Le fatal 18 juin arriva. Le terrain était détrempé quoi qu'il fît assez beau. L'Empereur avait fait une reconnaissance dès le matin. Il ne croyait pas encore que les Anglais voulussent lui livrer bataille ; il fit faire plusieurs mouvements sur la droite pour s'en assurer. Je dus aller reconnaître un chemin qui entrait dans la forêt, pour m'assurer s'il était praticable à l'artillerie. Les deux armées étaient en observation. On fit manger nos soldats.
Vers dix heures, l'Empereur fit serrer le 1er corps sur le second, qui occupait la gauche du chemin de Bruxelles. Nous occupâmes la droite de ce chemin, encaissé sur ce point. Deux divisions du 5e corps et la garde formaient la réserve.
J'étais auprès du comte d'Erlon quand M. de Labédoyère, général aide de camp de l'Empereur, vint me dire de sa part qu'il me donnait le commandement d'une batterie de quatre-vingts bouches à feu, qui se composait de toutes mes batteries de six, de ma réserve de douze, et des réserves des 2e et 5e corps (6e corps - note from Frédéric), ce qui ne formait réellement que cinquante-quatre bouches à feu dont vingt-quatre de douze. J'avais d'abord l'ordre de mettre en batterie toutes ces pièces dans la position que nous occupions, à mi-côte, sur une seule ligne, et de commencer le feu de toutes à la fois pour étonner et ébranler le moral de l'ennemi. J'allais me conformer à cet ordre quand le général Ruty, commandant en chef l'artillerie, vint à moi et me dit de faire la reconnaissance d'une position plus avancée afin de l'occuper plus tard. Vieux soldat, sachant par théorie et par pratique que tout mouvement sur le champ de bataille est une crise, et que surtout un mouvement d'une grande quantité d'artillerie est dangereux, je le fixai longtemps, interrogeant son regard pour être bien certain qu'il parlait sérieusement. Quand j'en eus acquis la certitude, je fis ma reconnaissance rapidement, puis au retour j'engageai le feu qui fit tout à coup trembler le sol. (...) Je méditais le mouvement que j'avais à opérer et que je me proposais d'exécuter partiellement par batterie, faisant feu en avançant. Je venais d'aborder le maréchal prince de la Moskowa dont j'avais la confiance entière, pour l'avertir de ce que j'allais faire et prendre ses instructions, quand j'aperçus le lieutenant-colonel * * * mettre en mouvement les réserves et se porter, sans aucune précaution, sur la seconde position. Il y arrive pourtant et peut s'y mettre en batterie. Au même instant le maréchal me crie : "Vous êtes chargé !" En effet, la cavalerie ennemie, profitant de l'interruption du feu, chargeait la 1re division du 1er corps qui formait un seul carré dans un pli de terrain au-dessous de nous.
Au moment où avait repris le feu de mes réserves, je ne voulus pas laisser un immense intervalle entre elles et mes canons de 6. J'envoyai mon aide de camp dire aux officiers qui les commandaient de se joindre à la gauche de la batterie. Il était trop tard ! L'infanterie, chargée en arrière par une cavalerie formidable, est rompue. Elle arrive pêle-mêle avec l'ennemi sur la réserve d'artillerie dont le feu est paralysé par la crainte de tuer les nôtres."
According to this général, who was present at the battle, the Grande batterie was actually composed of 54 pieces and was probably placed just in front on the Ist corps. There were no guns of the Imperial Guard.
It may look strange as with just 3 reserve batteries it should just reach 18 guns of 12 lbs. If he talks about 24 heavy guns, there should have been one more reserve battery. And, apparently the only other 12 lbs guns were in the Imperial Guard.
The aim of the grande batterie wasn't to destroy allied troops but to astonish and shake their moral.
On the other hand, there is the testimony of Général Gourgaud, Officier d'Ordonance of the Emperor :
"(...)Les masses anglaises étaient placées en arrière de la sommité de la position, afin d'être moins exposées au feu de notre artillerie, en sorte que nous ne voyions bien que les tirailleurs et les batteries ennemies.
A midi, l'Empereur m'envoie porter l'ordre, au maréchal Ney qui commandait principalement la droite, d'attaquer très vivement l'ennemi, en se faisant précéder par beaucoup d'artillerie. Je mets en batterie, en avant du corps d'Erlon, 64 bouches à feu (dont 30 de 12), et nous engageons, sur ce point, une vigoureuse canonnade. L'ennemi souffre beaucoup ; nos tirailleurs s'avancent, ils sont dans Mont Saint-Jean. Le maréchal Ney fait avancer toute sa ligne ; l'artillerie quitte une bonne position pour se porter en avant.(...)"
Gourgaud talks about more guns and more 12 lbs guns.
Both testimonies are talking about a movement (of at least the heavy batteries) to a forward postion that could be the ridge of La Haye Sainte, the grande batterie beeing initially in position mid slope of the ridge between Belle Alliance and Papelotte.
According to me the problem of the grande batterie isn't solved yet.
Regards
Frédéric
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Thank very much for your intervention,very interesting.
Now search to undertand the french test.
Yes the history of great battery is also for me not very clear.
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you have a vey good post which sumarizes all the options (in french) :
http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/article/Waterloo__la_grande_batterie/11021709 (http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/article/Waterloo__la_grande_batterie/11021709)
This post explain than the Adkins position should be the more realistic due to the place of all artillery convoyes behind the artillary line.
If you put the battery just front of the 1st corps line it would be totally disorganised by convoyes.
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Dear all,
Mister Damiens has probably a very logical reasoning but he doesn't stick to historical sources.
This is not the way to study History.
According to me (and historical method) a logical reasoning should never overrule a historical source, we first have to read testimonies and other historical sources and then try to connect all these sources by a logical reasoning.
Anyway, another testimony from a french soldier who was present at the battle may explain how the Grand Battery may have fired from a position on the ridge of La Belle Alliance without disorganising Ist corps formation.
This is the testimony of corporal Canler who was in the Quiot division of the Ist corps :
"Le soleil étant monté à l'horizon, on prit les armes et l'on se mit en bataille. L'empereur passa alors devant le front de tous les corps, et, par un mouvement spontané qui ressemblait à une commotion électrique, casques, shakos, bonnets à poil furent agités au bout des sabres ou des baïonnettes aux cris frénétiques de Vive l'Empereur ! !!
Vers midi, nous allâmes prendre position sur le plateau de la Sainte-Alliance, où avait été établie une batterie de quatre-vingts canons, puis on nous fit descendre dans le ravin qui porte le même nom, et où nous étions à l'abri d'une batterie formidable que les Anglais avaient établie pendant la nuit en face de la nôtre, et qui faisait un feu continuel.
Bientôt ce fut un duo effroyable exécuté par les deux batteries composées de près de deux cents canons ; les boulets, les bombes, les obus, passaient en sifflant au-dessus de nos têtes. Après une demi-heure d'attente, le maréchal Ney donna l'ordre d'attaquer et d'emporter d'assaut la batterie anglaise ; trois coups de baguette sur la caisse d'un tambour suffirent pour que le corps fût prêt à marcher : on nous forma en colonne serrée par bataillon"
Corporal Canler explains that the Ist corps was deployed in a ravine IN FRONT of the grand battery and that shots were flying above their head.
If the grand battery had been placed on the second ridge (the one of La Haye Sainte) the Ist corps would have been totally desorganised when going through it on its march to the allied line. It would have had to stop to reform, and this very close to the ennemy line and under fire of allied artillery.
This was tactically very dangerous.
On the other hand it was also dangerous to have such a big amount of artillery deployed so close to the ennemy line without any support.
Thirdly : what could be the second position where reserve batteries advanced (according to Dessales and Gourgaud) if the grand battery was already in place on this ridge? There are only two ridges on this part of the battle field.
The position proposed by Adkin and Damien, though logical as far as firing range is concerned, presents also some weak points.
Regards
Frédéric
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Speed simulation without micromanagement with great battery how your deploy at 500-600 mt.
AI take control in pratice of all corps,after give order to diversion at Reille to Hougument,English Guard at once in defence.
After 1/2 - 1 hour ->all great battery destroy.
At 12.30 french losses 10 % english 2%
at 13.00 AI put d'Erlon in defence and situation more stable french losses 10% english 4%
Yes, AI take control (the two sides are very closed).
But for me great battery is too much near to enemy and is in very danger.
For me is too much complex detach all units to play battle,perhaps is better that you alone play battle in both side with restricted orders.
You are more accustomed to play with detach units.(you have already made a simulation with Borodino).
Please , at the end tell us how end your the battle.
Hello
Im not play Waterloo to the end with detached units, just to 14.00, i have no problem to take Hougoumont but have big problem to coordinate d Erlons attack because infantry allways try go round battary or just stand and wait, my best result at 14.00 on picture, and more, in my battary was only 50 cannons, when i add 30 12pnd cannons of guard in battary, english line find oneself in real trouble.
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My pic at 13.00 with all great battery destroy.
I do not give support to great battery,i am waiting at 13.00 for shoots with it,but at 13.00 no more G.B.
AI had already take control of GB and alredy unlimbered and shoots.
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My pic at 13.00 with all great battery destroy.
I do not give support to great battery,i am waiting at 13.00 for shoots with it,but at 13.00 no more G.B.
AI had already take control of GB and alredy unlimbered and shoots.
Your battary was destroyed by enemy fire or cavalry counterattacks?
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By infantry !!
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Corporal Canler explains that the Ist corps was deployed in a ravine IN FRONT of the grand battery and that shots were flying above their head.
If the grand battery had been placed on the second ridge (the one of La Haye Sainte) the Ist corps would have been totd when going through it on its march to the allied line. It would have had to stop to reform, and this very close to the ennemy line and under fire of allied artillery.
This was tactically very dangerous.
On the other hand it was also dangerous to have such a big amount of artillery deployed so close to the ennemy line without any support.
Thirdly : what could be the second position where reserve batteries advanced (according to Dessales and Gourgaud) if the grand battery was already in place on this ridge? There are only two ridges on this part of the battle field.
The position proposed by Adkin and Damien, though logical as far as firing range is concerned, presents also some weak points.
Regards
Frédéric
I play 5 times variant where battary place on second ridge at 600m at enemy line, and i allways have desorganisation in d Erlons attack, and allways my battary was attacked by english cavalry with high casaltues for me, after that im go to idea that better place battary on 1st ridge at 900-1000m from enemy line and d Erlons infantry place between 2 ridges in ravine, and after infantry attack send forward some reserve battarys on second ridge to support. Im glad that my idea was in veteran memoris, maybe its true, it looks very lgical.
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Alfiere i think we must try variant like in Corporal Canler memoris i think its very good version.
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I agree.
G.B. at 1 ridge is more safe , and only in second time some battery support INF attack.
If you want play ok, for my side i play only with little micromanagement , if is necessary.
Hello
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Corporal Canler memoris variant:
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A question, how many guns in the deploy ?
80 or 50 ?
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A question, how many guns in the deploy ?
80 or 50 ?
50 cannons - 6 12pnd Reile corps, 6 12pnd Muton corps, 6 12pnd d Erlons, 24 8pnd d Erlons and 10 hw.
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OMG artillery cant fire at this position - too long range! :p
Where was this battary?
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Too far to make true damage,this speak history.
But we can use how barrier and sometime some battery to move in advance for support attack.
For me is not wrong at the end.
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Im remember about strange formation (battalion after battalion) with small front which used to attack by Quiot, Donzelot, Marcognet and this direct me on some thinks:
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I play my last version and have not bad resoult:
1) Im take Hougoumont with hard fight and high casualties in Jerome division after 1h of battle, English guard try to counter attack but french stand, resoult not histirical but i play only to 13.00 Englishmans have enough time to retake casttle.
2) With my last deployment d Erlons infantry easy go to attack between battarys, french infantry go to ridge but English cavalry conterattack force infantry runaway or stand in square - resoult close to histori.(im start d Erlons attack at 12.30)
3)Im always have problem with unauthorized movment of french cavalry and i must always send orders to recall.(its historical if remember Neys cavalry charge :D)
4)All units detached for minimize unauthorized movment and orders.
P.S. If you interested i can upload save file in depot.
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Wich is your last version? Wich differences have with original mod's battle? Thanks
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Wich is your last version? Wich differences have with original mod's battle? Thanks
Version with my last deployment, look at picture post #163. And read all topic, im and Alfiere create new satellite map for Waterloo.
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Why do not proceed until end?
After that is more interesting to have sav file for to watch replay.
I changed and continued my battle in solo mode single side ,without GB (screenshot # topic 152) and i had a good recovery.(only for curiosity)
At 17.20 reduce difference to 5% losses , english front create a channel and i attack this channel with guard very soon.
But i must tell that Bulow has not own plan and remain stationary.
I stop to play at 17.20
In your battle there is no channel and is more historical (a front and also a support for the 1 front).
Then is more interesting.
Hello
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Why do not proceed until end?
After that is more interesting to have sav file for to watch replay.
I changed and continued my battle in solo mode single side ,without GB (screenshot # topic 152) and i had a good recovery.(only for curiosity)
At 17.20 reduce difference to 5% losses , english front create a channel and i attack this channel with guard very soon.
But i must tell that Bulow has not own plan and remain stationary.
I stop to play at 17.20
In your battle there is no channel and is more historical (a front and also a support for the 1 front).
Then is more interesting.
Hello
Im not play to the end because i want know some information about Quiot, Donzelot, Marcognet formation to attack, why they use division columns to attack, all i know from historic sources that they use "old style formation, Napoleon saw this but do nothing". Anybody have information about this?
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Im not play to the end because i want know some information about Quiot, Donzelot, Marcognet formation to attack, why they use division columns to attack, all i know from historic sources that they use "old style formation, Napoleon saw this but do nothing". Anybody have information about this?
Hello,
I have never seen any historical sources explaining why they used such a formation. Some historians tried to explain the reason but it is still an open issue.
It has been said many times that the formation wasn't good at all as it was preventing square formation and thus resistance against cavalry.
It is probably not true as Donzelot division succeed in forming a square and succesfully repulsed the english heavy brigade.
According to english accounts the failure of d'Erlon attack was much due to disorder in columns after having crossed the hedges of the the Chemin d'Ohain and the heavy fire poured by allied artillery and infantry during the march in the plain.
I hope it helps
Regards
Frédéric
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My version that they use this formation because must go through battary wich was very close to enemy line, they go on small corridors about 100 - 120m and some divisions go round of the battary to the right between battary and Durutte division, they have small front to marching and have no time after they go through battary to change formation.
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This is the testimony of corporal Canler who was in the Quiot division of the Ist corps :
"Le soleil étant monté à l'horizon, on prit les armes et l'on se mit en bataille. L'empereur passa alors devant le front de tous les corps, et, par un mouvement spontané qui ressemblait à une commotion électrique, casques, shakos, bonnets à poil furent agités au bout des sabres ou des baïonnettes aux cris frénétiques de Vive l'Empereur ! !!
Vers midi, nous allâmes prendre position sur le plateau de la Sainte-Alliance, où avait été établie une batterie de quatre-vingts canons, puis on nous fit descendre dans le ravin qui porte le même nom, et où nous étions à l'abri d'une batterie formidable que les Anglais avaient établie pendant la nuit en face de la nôtre, et qui faisait un feu continuel.
Bientôt ce fut un duo effroyable exécuté par les deux batteries composées de près de deux cents canons ; les boulets, les bombes, les obus, passaient en sifflant au-dessus de nos têtes. Après une demi-heure d'attente, le maréchal Ney donna l'ordre d'attaquer et d'emporter d'assaut la batterie anglaise ; trois coups de baguette sur la caisse d'un tambour suffirent pour que le corps fût prêt à marcher : on nous forma en colonne serrée par bataillon"
It doesn't mean that they were deployed before the artillery. If the artillery is in the little mount wich start à the 21st km, it could mean that the infantry was behind protected by the mountside.
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It doesn't mean that they were deployed before the artillery. If the artillery is in the little mount wich start à the 21st km, it could mean that the infantry was behind protected by the mountside.
Hello Bibouba,
That could indeed be an explanation. But Canler says that they first went on the ridge where the grand battery was installed.
According to you this would mean that they went on the mount of 21st km in rear of the grand battery and then went back down in the ravine. Why not?
But in that case, we come back to the problem of ammunition caissons which were placed behind the grand battery and would have disorganised the the Ist corps. Nothing is solved
And it still doesn't explain :
1/how the big columns went through the grand battery and caissons on the march to the allied line. A batalion deployed in line is very difficult to manoeuver and is almost only able to go forward.
2/what was the second position where reserve batteries went before the charge of the heavy brigade as stated by Gourgaud and Dessales
3/how the grand battery was brought on the ridge at the 21st km
4/why, in that case, was the effect of the grand battery so weak on allied troops. Mister Damiens says "Les témoignages cités par Siborne, celui du baron van Zuylen van Nijevelt[36], tous ceux des témoins de ce côté du champ de bataille sont d’accord : on eut à subir de cruelles pertes, avant même d’avoir pu tirer un coup de mousquet"
On the other hand the map from Adkins you gave shows that the effect of the grand battery was poor.
I read Waterloo letters of Siborne from the Kempt en Pack brigades. They don't talk about cruel casulaties before firing a shot. They don't heaven mention the fire of the grand battery. It seems they were not so impressed.
It's possible that van Zuylen van Nijveldt tlaks about it but he was placed with the Bijlandt brigade on top of the ridge. In sight and in the range of 12 lbs french guns wherever they were placed.
As far as I currently know the easiest way
Regards
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And it still doesn't explain :
1/how the big columns went through the grand battery and caissons on the march to the allied line. A batalion deployed in line is very difficult to manoeuver and is almost only able to go forward.
4/why, in that case, was the effect of the grand battery so weak on allied troops. Mister Damiens says "Les témoignages cités par Siborne, celui du baron van Zuylen van Nijevelt[36], tous ceux des témoins de ce côté du champ de bataille sont d’accord : on eut à subir de cruelles pertes, avant même d’avoir pu tirer un coup de mousquet"
On the other hand the map from Adkins you gave shows that the effect of the grand battery was poor.
I read Waterloo letters of Siborne from the Kempt en Pack brigades. They don't talk about cruel casulaties before firing a shot. They don't heaven mention the fire of the grand battery. It seems they were not so impressed.
It's possible that van Zuylen van Nijveldt tlaks about it but he was placed with the Bijlandt brigade on top of the ridge. In sight and in the range of 12 lbs french guns wherever they were placed.
1. I think in Grand battary was small corridors(1 or 2 corridors) about 100-120m in lengh and infantry go forward in this corridors battalion after battalion in line, thats point to use "old style formation"
2. About poor casulaties of Bijlandt brigade, i think 50 cannons have not much firepower to give big injure to small brigade deployed in line.
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Ok guys, in conclusion i say that im play 3 variants of Waterloo battle(picture 1,2,3), in first variant i have disorganization in d Erlons corps when he went through the battary, in second variant grand battary cant open fire because range was too long and no aiming shot, and third variant most adapted to game and maybe to reality. Thanks so much to Alfiere for his work at elevations and Bibuoba for his hard work at MOD and to all for try to finde truth. Im upload 3rd variant in depot like Alifere-Jacquinot addon to Bibuoba MOD. All units detachet to exclude unauthorized orders and movment, but if you dont like micromanagment you can attach all units or units which you want.
And of course we can continue discussion about Grand battary,the truth is somewhere close :D
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The second one is not possible. I ve been more than 30 time in Waterloo battlefield and there is no ravine on that part. They are totaly expose to the Allies artillery.
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The second one is not possible. I ve been more than 30 time in Waterloo battlefield and there is no ravine on that part. They are totaly expose to the Allies artillery.
Hello Bibouba,
Then maybe you should come to the battlefield once again, and if you like I will accompany you to show the "ravine". I don't live far away from the battle field
If there are two different ridges (the one of Belle Allaince and the one of La Haye Sainte), there is inevitably a dale between them.
Regards
Frédéric
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The second one is not possible. I ve been more than 30 time in Waterloo battlefield and there is no ravine on that part. They are totaly expose to the Allies artillery.
Yes there is no ravine just little lowplace.
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Yes there is no ravine just little lowplace.
Hello,
On the following map I highlighted the part of the "ravine" with an elevation lower than 4 metres from the ridge of la Haye Sainte. In this area even a tall man with shako on his head is always 2 meters below the top of the ridge that hides him from allied fire.
This area is about 1000 metres long and 300 metres wide in the widest part and still 100 metres in the most narrow part.
The diagram below shows how could have been formed the french divisions of the Ist corps for the first attack.
There were about 125 m wide for 75-80 m deep.
There were 4 columns (Bourgeois brigade, Donzelot division, Marcognet division and Durutte division)
On the whole area they have enough place in depth to form columns and they just use about 500 m wide. They still have enough place to leave space between each column of about 100 m and remaining hidden from allied fire.
Of course the word "ravine" is exagerated to talk about this small dale but it was the word used by Corporal Canler and it is technically usable to hide columns from battery fire.
It is of course not a proof that this was the position of the Ist corps at the beginning of the attack but it shows that it was possible
I hope it can help
Regards
Frédéric
(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9320/ravindelabellealliance.jpg) (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/ravindelabellealliance.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6522/divisionmarcognet.jpg) (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/divisionmarcognet.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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I have doubled the slope with map elevations for to make it clear , but also so is not much evident the 'ravine' but perhaps give a idea of little dale.
With srtm the risolution of reliefs is 90 meters.(there is exact elevations every 90 meters)
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so if this position is plausible, it means that the artillery is deployed on the initial position of the first corps, folowing the road from la belle alliance (due to the space needed for the convoyes).
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@bibouba.
If you maybe return to battlefield , do not forget to make some digital photos from 100 mt more advance of road of Belle Alliance.
So is possible to see little dale in confront with my picture with map editor.
Also to judge the map editor rendering and risolution of srtm , if they are enough good to give a idea.
If you want,is clear.
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I can scan again the photo in the Adkins book for the moment. I live in Brussel not far away but prefer to go during spring (too cold for the moment).
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When you want,this year,next year , next two years is not a problem,but if you maybe return to visit a battlefield.....
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I found this,6 th photos,but view by above.
http://walkingwaterloo.blogspot.com/2009/04/napoleons-hq.html
I notice a little ondulation on terrain,but not much.
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Im place French units in "ravine" and saw on them from English line at 3 different positions and at all positions Britans have clear shot and as you can see French battrys behinde on ridge can fire over infantry head but range too long for artillery at that times.
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Good idea
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Hello,
On the following map I highlighted the part of the "ravine" with an elevation lower than 4 metres from the ridge of la Haye Sainte. In this area even a tall man with shako on his head is always 2 meters below the top of the ridge that hides him from allied fire.
This area is about 1000 metres long and 300 metres wide in the widest part and still 100 metres in the most narrow part.
The diagram below shows how could have been formed the french divisions of the Ist corps for the first attack.
There were about 125 m wide for 75-80 m deep.
There were 4 columns (Bourgeois brigade, Donzelot division, Marcognet division and Durutte division)
On the whole area they have enough place in depth to form columns and they just use about 500 m wide. They still have enough place to leave space between each column of about 100 m and remaining hidden from allied fire.
Of course the word "ravine" is exagerated to talk about this small dale but it was the word used by Corporal Canler and it is technically usable to hide columns from battery fire.
It is of course not a proof that this was the position of the Ist corps at the beginning of the attack but it shows that it was possible
I hope it can help
Regards
Frédéric
(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9320/ravindelabellealliance.jpg) (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/ravindelabellealliance.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6522/divisionmarcognet.jpg) (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/divisionmarcognet.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Thanks for this information.
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@bibouba.
If you maybe return to battlefield , do not forget to make some digital photos from 100 mt more advance of road of Belle Alliance.
So is possible to see little dale in confront with my picture with map editor.
Also to judge the map editor rendering and risolution of srtm , if they are enough good to give a idea.
If you want,is clear.
Hello,
Yesterday evening, at dusk, I went to the battlefield and went down the small dale between both ridges.
My digital camere is currently out of use but I tried to show on map and picture what I saw (and didn't) from this position
The light yellow area shows the part of the fild out of my line of sight. I was totally hidden from the Mont Saint Jean ridge until the convent at the right (near the culminating point 133).
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8560/lineofsight.jpg) (http://img713.imageshack.us/i/lineofsight.jpg/)
To make it more clear I did the same on the picture found on the link you gave yesterday. For people not familiar with the Battlefield I put a legend of the most important points of this topic
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9061/photocdb.jpg) (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/photocdb.jpg/)
I hope it helps
Regards
Frédéric
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Thank you very much Frédéric .
The situation is now always more clear.
I was totally hidden from the Mont Saint Jean ridge until the convent at the right (near the culminating point 133).
This is a confirm important.
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I just think about another possibility :
the great battery deployes in the mount KM 21.
The first corps is behind the road. Just have a look to this link , you could see that there is a second hill behind the hill with another hollow
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/3821901 (http://www.panoramio.com/photo/3821901)
with this proposition there is place for the artilllery convoyes
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Using my map with doubled slope,the three french INF are not visible , only flag for two the other is totally hidden.
Note the road that disappear.
But wait Jacquinot for some experiment.
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but is it the Frederic proposal or the one behind the road ?
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I just think about another possibility :
the great battery deployes in the mount KM 21.
The first corps is behind the road. Just have a look to this link , you could see that there is a second hill behind the hill with another hollow
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/3821901 (http://www.panoramio.com/photo/3821901)
with this proposition there is place for the artilllery convoyes
According to me the ridge with the crop circle is the the hedge KM21.
The ridge where peoples are is the continuation of the little mount where the gravel pit was (should be situated at the right of the picture)
The hedge of la Belle Alliance is the one where we can see a hedge in the center right
Regards
(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/3821901.jpg)
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look this one, normally according this website the first mount is near the road.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1678021 (http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1678021)
This is my idea
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9320/ravindelabellealliance.jpg) (http://img98.imageshack.us/i/ravindelabellealliance.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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look this one, normally according this website the first mount is near the road.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1678021 (http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1678021)
Here is my interpretation of this picture
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4020/cropcircle.jpg) (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/cropcircle.jpg/)
On the following, we can see where the hedge of the background is placed
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4222/cropcirclebelleallinace.jpg) (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/cropcirclebelleallinace.jpg/)
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Map with slope doubled work so:
Normal calculations with scilab:
example :
highest point of map 130 mt , lowest 50 mt
scilab put at = 0 mt lowest point and ricalculations the other points, at the end new highs are
highest point of map 80 mt , lowest 0 mt
at this point I use a factor from .1 to xxx.
In this case i use 2.(only for experiment)
highest point of map 160 mt , lowest 0 mt (lowest remain 0 because 0*2=0)
With this method is possible decrease slope in a map very mountainous area or increase slope in a flat area.
I made another test,but now there are not hidden points for french.The flags are visible.
I do not know....
2 pics , i made some roads to see better terrain undulations.View from road of Belle Alliance
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Guys, i think the key to know where was GB its Quiot, Marcognet and Donzelot formation to attack, why the use this formation? If they form to attack in ravine infront of Grand battary and was hide from enemy fire, why they dont use tipical french battalion columns or mix formation when central battalions in lines and flang battalions in columns? I know only one reason - they must go trough battary on small corridors and dont have enough time to change formation because battary was close to enemy line, and only one division under Durutte command use tipical battalion columns because Durutte dont go through battary, he go to the right from battary in direction on Papilot.
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interesting deduction but....
weak points for me.
1)powerfull GB has made no very damage. why?
2)Difficult to move GB with mud until 500-600 mt from enemy (under fire).
3)Formation in line , is not because low damage under fire english ART and more powerful of shoots when attack to enemy? (30 times powefull of shoots in line rather that in columns)
Probabily Durotte had time to change formation,perhaps not under ART fire.
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Im build some profiles in GooglErth
1. English line
2. La He Sainte ridge
3. Ravine
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interesting deduction but....
weak points for me.
1)powerfull GB has made no very damage. why?
2)Difficult to move GB with mud until 500-600 mt from enemy (under fire).
3)Formation in line , is not because low damage under fire english ART and more powerful of shoots when attack to enemy? (30 times powefull of shoots in line rather that in columns)
Probabily Durotte had time to change formation,perhaps not under ART fire.
1) 50 guns its not much number to make big damage, and remember main Welington forces stand behind ridge, infront GB was only Bitlandt small brigade formed in line.
2) What means mud? Come to Russia in March and you know what means real mud after 1m of snow cover is thaw , but Belgium is not Russia and June not March, what kind of mud can be after 1 night of rain? I think fairy tale about mud was invent by Bonapartists to make excuses for lost.
3) But line slow in move.
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All ideas can be right or wrong.
I do not know.
Make a poll.
Where was french GB at Waterloo?
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All ideas can be right or wrong.
I do not know.
Make a poll.
Where was french GB at Waterloo?
Yes we need a poll.
Can you creat a poll, please.
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I am not very able,but can try.
Title :
Where was grand Battery at Waterloo ?
option
1)100 mt more advance little road of Belle Alliance (900-1000 mt from enemy)
2)(what i can say ?) 500-600 mt from enemy ? or what ?
other options ?
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I am not very able,but can try.
Title :
Where was grand Battery at Waterloo ?
option
1)100 mt more advance little road of Belle Alliance (900-1000 mt from enemy)
2)(what i can say ?) 500-600 mt from enemy ? or what ?
other options ?
2) On La He Sainte ridge at 600 - 700m from enemy line.
3) Gran battary its myth.
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they form to attack in ravine infront of Grand battary and was hide from enemy fire
I m pretty sure they were not infront of the GB. They were behind.
There are testimony that the GB stop to fire to let the Infantry pass for the attack.
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I m pretty sure they were not infront of the GB. They were behind.
There are testimony that the GB stop to fire to let the Infantry pass for the attack.
Agree.
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Agree too..
And don't forget the british heavy cav went rapidly to the battery and make damage before being charge themselves by french cav. In my opinion, an important argument in favor of option 2 (700m near La Haye-Sainte).
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Agree too..
And don't forget the british heavy cav went rapidly to the battery and make damage before being charge themselves by french cav. In my opinion, an important argument in favor of option 2 (700m near La Haye-Sainte).
Yes is true.This a aspect unclear of the battle.
There was a order of Napo to move them more advance .
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Guys i think we need to start next vote - why Marcognet, Quiot and Donzelot use column of battalions formation? What do you think? :D
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Hi guys, you might find this useful. Its an extract from General Dessales' memoirs published after his death. He was given command of the Grand Battery at waterloo. Its not conclusive but gives a hint on where the battery might of been during the battle.
http://www.1789-1815.com/dessales.htm
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Hi guys, you might find this useful. Its an extract from General Dessales' memoirs published after his death. He was given command of the Grand Battery at waterloo. Its not conclusive but gives a hint on where the battery might of been during the battle.
http://www.1789-1815.com/dessales.htm
All what i can understand with Google translator, that general Ruty give order to Dessales take positions more in advance, but what was after that i can understand, can you translate briefly?
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I undestand few but:
1)54 guns
2)deploy at the start near 1° corp, then near road of Belle Alliance
3)move the ART is a danger etc etc
(is not knowed when exacty move the ART , but I heard that move after attack of d'Erlon to support him,only 12 pdrs)
4)after he moved ART there was the charge of english CAV .....
but wait someone that translate better of me,only intersting points.
very interesting
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I undestand few but:
1)54 guns
2)deploy at the start near 1° corp, then near road of Belle Alliance
3)move the ART is a danger etc etc
(is not knowed when exacty move the ART , but I heard that move after attack of d'Erlon to support him,only 12 pdrs)
4)after he moved ART there was the charge of english CAV .....
but wait someone that translate better of me.
very interesting
1. Im undestand that Labedyaer give order from Emperor to place battary with 84 guns but in reality was only 54 guns ready to fire. Im wright? Google translator not prefect.
2. I dont see any mention about place where stand grand battary, only order to move more in advance.
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There also the description of the start deploy ....
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And one more interesting information about Muton corps on this site!
http://www.1789-1815.com/wat_cartes01.htm
Im play my and Alfiere version of Waterloo battle in saturday and at 13.30 im move back English left flang behind the ridge, i think for this situation if i dont know about Prussians best order its move Muton corps to the right and smash Welington left flang. Maybe it was Napoleon plan, and Muton meet Prussians by accident like in version on this site?
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I do not think that Napo think to Lobau for attack to east flank.
For Napo the center is 'a must' and do not like complex maneuvers during the battle.
Only if Lobau was deploy at start on the right.... but seems was at the center.
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I do not think that Napo think to Lobau for attack to east flank.
For Napo the center is 'a must' and do not like complex maneuvers during the battle.
Only if Lobau was deploy at start on the right.... but seems was at the center.
Look at map before battle Alfiere, what regiments saw Napo on Welington left flang and what regiments on right? On left Welington flank Napo saw only Dutch, Belgian and Hanoverian regiments, on right flank he saw English guard, that why Napo have plan to attack Welingtons left wing and theoretically Muton have order to support d Erlons corps on right flank, but when Muton went to right flank he saw Prussians in Pariswood and attack them. Maybe at this moment Napo knows about Prussians on his right flank and move his attacks to center.
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Option 1 is righhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttt. :D
the drums sound the charge.
the mistery of start deploy is revealed.
the fog disappeared
etc etc
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Option 1 is righhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttt. :D
the drums sound the charge.
the mistery of start deploy is revealed.
the fog disappeared
etc etc
What option?
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About first corps formation: http://www.1789-1815.com/wat_col_1corps.htm
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Jacquinot,now is enough clear the start deploy.
Follow the historical orders during the battle is much difficult.
Because any orders is tied to events during battle,any battle is different also the same battle can reach events different with the same orders.
Is enough a little delay or anticipate a attack to make big differences.
The only way is to play a free battle from historical deploy and see how end.
This is what i think.
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Jacquinot,now is enough clear the start deploy.
Follow the historical orders during the battle is much difficult.
Because any orders is tied to events during battle,any battle is different also the same battle can reach events different with the same orders.
Is enough a little delay or anticipate a attack to make big differences.
The only way is to play a free battle from historical deploy and see how end.
This is what i think.
Do you want play a PBEM?
And what start deploy you think right?
I play with micromanagment i dont know how can i play with micromanagment in PBEM. Maybe on-line play.
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There are testimony that the GB stop to fire to let the Infantry pass for the attack.
Hello Bibouba,
Which testimnies?
Regards
Frédéric
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1)View on GB from place where stand Bitland brigade.
2) View from Napo command post.
3) View from GB 600m version on English left wing.
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I play my battle to 16.00, im start second attack with d Erlon corps on left flank and send Reille corps between Hougoumon and La Haye Sainte with heavy cavalry support, at 16.00 Welington is beaten, Prussians too late!
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just asking myself, may be the first corps had this particular deployment due to go through the artillery convoyes. Then they needed a little space to advance right away.
If they were behind the artillery, they needed to be concentrate before to start the march to the allies. And after no time due to the allies artillery to redeploye. Could be a solution for this particular formation.
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just asling myself, may be the first corps had the particular deployment due to go through the artillery convoyes. Then they needed a little space to advance right away.
If they were behind the artillery, they needed to be concentrate before to start the march to the allies. And after no time due to the allies artillery to redeploye. Could be a solution for this particular formation.
Agree look at my post #170.
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Yeah sorry didn't notice it before. But our position coud explain why they used this formation.
If the battery was in the little munt (km 21) it was impossible for them to change the formation after that because they were already engaged by artillery.
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http://www.histwar.org/forum/index.php/topic,5604.msg76681.html#msg76681
What distance is the person in red?
I am rethink because there is not hidden point for french in the map.
Perhaps is also a problem of tall of figurines,there is also the flag.
What do you think to make a experiment , put a unit at the same distance of person in red for to see the difference of apparent distance?
may be interesting or not?
Sorry,now think that photos and vision in game are much different.
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Yeah sorry didn't notice it before. But our position coud explain why they used this formation.
If the battery was in the little munt (km 21) it was impossible for them to change the formation after that because they were already engaged by artillery.
Exactly, its only one reason to use this formation.
But we cant simulate this formation in HW, like in WNLB game.
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http://www.histwar.org/forum/index.php/topic,5604.msg76681.html#msg76681
What distance is the person in red?
I am rethink because there is not hidden point for french in the map.
Perhaps is also a problem of tall of figurines,there is also the flag.
What do you think to make a experiment , put a unit at the same distance of person in red for to see the difference of apparent distance?
may be interesting or not?
Sorry,now think that photos and vision in game are much different.
You can see the difference.
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I am speaking of person in red.
I think that person in red seems at 500 mt.
I put french at 500 mt , to confront the photos and screnshoot.
It is the flag very high.
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I am speaking of person in red.
I think that person in red seems at 500 mt.
I put french at 500 mt , to confront the photos and screnshoot.
It is the flag very high.
something wrong on your game screenshot
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I use map with slope doubled.
With many roads to see better undulation of terrain.
View from opposite road of Belle Alliance.(english side)
Whitout deploy.
Do you think that the person in red is at 500 mt?
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I use map with slope doubled.
With many roads to see better undulation of terrain.
View from opposite road of Belle Alliance.(english side)
Whitout deploy.
Look at my screens i think they looks most similar, what do you think?
Person in red 300 - 350m
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Yes is true.
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I dont like this experements with double slops, if you remember experements of bibuoba in mods map.
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person in red on foto maximum 350m
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Yes , i create another map with double slope for experiment only to see if there a hidden point for french in the map.
Waterloo map is normal.
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Now repeat with 350 mt.
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Very similar.
350 mt.
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I cant see where the 1st ridge and where 2nd
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Yes,only undulation of terrain.
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Yes,only undulation of terrain.
And where is undulation?
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http://www.histwar.org/forum/index.php/topic,5604.msg76682.html#msg76682
are not little undulation?
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In the screenshot of map editor the slopes are little more evident than screenshot of LG map .
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http://www.histwar.org/forum/index.php/topic,5604.msg76682.html#msg76682
are not little undulation?
I see undulation only for one ridge on your last screen
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normaly the first slope is behind the road if i see well the pictures
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Using map double slope.
Follow the first vertical road on the right of Belle Alliance
start with 136 mt , always decrease until 100 and then increase until 112
with this profile there are not hidden point for french.
it is also not possible create it by hand ,because after copy highV4 .hgh the ground is not modifiable with map editor.
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Add 2° ridge to waterloo.
What do tou think?
@Jacquinot
If is ok i can rework it with reliefs with 0 meters and try to use with your map with vegetation ,overwriting HihgV4.HGH.
how in 3a pic,i have controlled,french behind ridge are not visible
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Add 2° ridge to waterloo.
What do tou think?
@Jacquinot
If is ok i can rework it with reliefs with 0 meters and try to use with your map with vegetation ,overwriting HihgV4.HGH.
how in 3a pic,i have controlled,french behind ridge are not visible
You done hard work :D but in reality french troops are visible behind this ridge or not?
You want play this variant?
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You done hard work :D but in reality french troops are visible behind this ridge or not?
You want play this variant?
but in reality french troops are visible behind this ridge or not?
I think of not,if now there is hidden point at Waterloo.
You want play this variant?
Why not.
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but in reality french troops are visible behind this ridge or not?
I think of not,if now there is hidden point at Waterloo.
You want play this variant?
Why not.
Visible or not, i think GB distance is 600m :D
Now im read where was GB in Borodino battle.