HistWar
HistWar (international zone) => Evolution => Discussion démarrée par: Gunner24 le 09 septembre 2010, 16:33:30 pm
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It has become very clear that Guard Cav are almost uncontrolable in MP games, once they get within range of the enemy they will attack a unit, regardless of if that one unit is with many others......I think what is happening is that the guard unit see's a weaker unit it will beat, so attacks, but it does not take into accound the other ten units that may be nearby.
Could there be a way of making a Regt take into account other close by units, to the one it wants to attack ?.
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Just a test before I take a look at this behaviour.
Before launching the battle (P), could you change the initiative for the units you want to keep the control.
In F7, open the page "Corps". You can see the different units attached to the corps.
You can choose the initiative/offensive behaviours with the icons <|> (and other icons I can't display) either for all units of the corps OR for only an unit.
If this behaviour is not modfied, I'll fix this issue in a next patch.
JMM
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Thanks, I did assume this was caused by the Commanders ratings, but it appeared to be the same regardless of these behaviours, we checked during a game, and some of them were NOT aggrisive, but I will try your suggestion in the next game and confirm if this makes any difference, or not.
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The logic is simple
Is unit able to do the action?
If so, is unit authorized to do the action?
if so, action authorized
able: is moral right? (*)
authorized: is initiative right?
JMM
(*) just a bit more complex because there are some other criteria
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Is unit able to do the action?
If so, is unit authorized to do the action?
if so, action authorized
able: is moral right? (*)
authorized: is initiative right?
The answer will be yes to all those questions, but if it attacks ONE Regt, that has about another 10 close by, the action should be stopped - yes ?.
It is the 1v1 thing at work again, the Guard Cav see's a Regt it knows it will beat, so it attacks, but there are another 10 with the one, and it can not beat all 11 of them, so it should not have attacked the one it could beat.
The Guard Cav are very powerfull, and cause a lot of problems for the enemy when used right, but often they go off into IMPOSSIBLE attacks and get captured, and the player can not stop that happening.
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Your guard should always be your last reserve, kept in the rear to defend the LOP if that becomes necessary, and only sent forward when the enemy is weakened and near defeat. Even then you might want to keep one of the guard cavalry units near the LOP, or a guard infantry unit depending on the composition of your guard forces. Keeping the guard cavalry in the rear might require some adjustments to the doctrine or some micromanagement of the guard cavalry.
If you're using your guard forces in this manner, then the behavior you describe is exactly what you want them to be doing. If they can't defeat all 11 opponents, they'll still defeat several of them, making it easier on the rest of your forces in the area.
Hook
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Your guard should always be your last reserve, kept in the rear to defend the LOP if that becomes necessary, and only sent forward when the enemy is weakened and near defeat. Even then you might want to keep one of the guard cavalry units near the LOP, or a guard infantry unit depending on the composition of your guard forces. Keeping the guard cavalry in the rear might require some adjustments to the doctrine or some micromanagement of the guard cavalry.
If you're using your guard forces in this manner, then the behavior you describe is exactly what you want them to be doing. If they can't defeat all 11 opponents, they'll still defeat several of them, making it easier on the rest of your forces in the area.
Hook
I can only agree - if the Guard is committed it has only one single purpose - and that is attack or hold WHATEVER the cost - as Guard commanders only the best and most aggressive were being selected, and the soldiers they commanded were only the best and bravest of all - so the only thing you want them to do is attack no matter if the enemy is highly superior in numbers or not!
CvC
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Not always the case that the guard cavalry was withheld - eg Austerlitz
I agree with the concern of one unit versus one unit - it seems once the decision to attack has been made then nothing will cause a rethink. Perhaps JMM could explain the logic here - is there logic to reconsider the action of a unit but is it not working?
This 1:1 I consider to be like "man for man" marking in football. There are times when zonal marking would be a better idea
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Not always the case that the guard cavalry was withheld - eg Austerlitz
indeed - 2 things to Austerlitz:
it is my oppinion that there was little else to commit at that very time to stem the tide of the Russian Guard - so it was committed (Berthier seeing the fleeing French infantry soldier, I am sure you're familiar with the following conversation between him and his adjutant)
and of course.....the French Guard was always eager to see action - as accounted for in numerous occasions - but Napoleon was wise to keep them in reserves - not so wise at Borodino/Moskwa ;)
the Grenadiers charged on...until they were forced to retire.... - personally I like my Guard cavalry aggressive - it is true that it sometimes rushes forward a little too early - I either let it (usually with great success) - or you can simply avoid that by giving another order to it (best a delayed one)
if JMM programms something so that this workaround can be avoided - even better!
CvC
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Another observation on cavalry (not just guard) - there is a tendency for units to find themselves deep behind enemy lines (kilometers).
I cannot recall any memoirs (maybe excepting British) where battle cavalry went changing off into the distance
Normal behaviour would be to rally back behind supports or pursue with supports in attendance
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Another observation on cavalry (not just guard) - there is a tendency for units to find themselves deep behind enemy lines (kilometers).
I cannot recall any memoirs (maybe excepting British) where battle cavalry went changing off into the distance
Normal behaviour would be to rally back behind supports or pursue with supports in attendance
I can only second that - this is a problem
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it seems once the decision to attack has been made then nothing will cause a rethink
Yes, it is worse with the Guard, but it applies to many other situations as well....a single Hussar Regt attacks a Regt it can defeat, but it "forgets" about the other 6 Regts close by !!!.
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Another observation on cavalry (not just guard) - there is a tendency for units to find themselves deep behind enemy lines (kilometers).
I cannot recall any memoirs (maybe excepting British) where battle cavalry went changing off into the distance
Normal behaviour would be to rally back behind supports or pursue with supports in attendance
On the real battlefield, there would usually be some cavalry reserve in the rear that would keep enemy cavalry out of the area. This doesn't happen often in the game unless the player scatters a few individual cavalry units there intentionally.
I do remember reading at least one account of cavalry getting "trapped" behind enemy lines, but I don't remember where I read it or what battle it was. In the game, these guys usually end up with lowered morale because they're so far from their commanders or friendly troops, and usually have high fatigue. Put them on the route your prisoners will take to exit the map and the cavalry will free the prisoners.
If you find yourself with enemy cavalry behind your lines, send a cavalry unit from your reserves in the rear to capture them or chase them off the map or back to their own lines.
Hook
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Put them on the route your prisoners will take to exit the map and the cavalry will free the prisoners.
Again, you learn something every day. Hook, can you elaborate on this a little please
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Yes, it is worse with the Guard, but it applies to many other situations as well....a single Hussar Regt attacks a Regt it can defeat, but it "forgets" about the other 6 Regts close by !!!.
Have you modified the initiative and aggressiveness of the cavalry to see if it helps the situation yet?
If I have an infantry corps with a couple of attached cavalry units faced with an enemy corps that's the same, then the cavalry is doing exactly what I want them to do. If I have a cavalry corps, then I keep them out of the battle until I see a major infantry clash about to happen, in which case I send them in to capture routing enemy infantry so I only have to fight them once. If I have a cavalry corps about to go against another cavalry corps, which is unusual, then they're behaving the way they should. If I have an infantry corps with attached cavalry threatened by a cavalry corps, this is the only situation that would produce what you're describing. It's up to you whether you want to manually pull your cavalry back early or let them try to thin the enemy cavalry a bit.
Hook
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Again, you learn something every day. Hook, can you elaborate on this a little please
Friendly prisoners passing near friendly cavalry, and probably friendly infantry as well, will be freed from prisoner status and change to exit the map status. The area status screen probably has to show the area completely free from enemy contested ground for this to happen, but I'm not totally sure on this one.
Hook
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Have you modified the initiative and aggressiveness of the cavalry to see if it helps the situation yet?
I have checked, it happens with defensive behaviour and low initiative.
It's up to you whether you want to manually pull your cavalry back early or let them try to thin the enemy cavalry a bit.
This is the problem, when these guys do this it proves impossible to over ride the AI orders, they will go off and attack even if you try to pull them back.
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On the real battlefield, there would usually be some cavalry reserve in the rear that would keep enemy cavalry out of the area. This doesn't happen often in the game unless the player scatters a few individual cavalry units there intentionally.
I do remember reading at least one account of cavalry getting "trapped" behind enemy lines, but I don't remember where I read it or what battle it was. In the game, these guys usually end up with lowered morale because they're so far from their commanders or friendly troops, and usually have high fatigue. Put them on the route your prisoners will take to exit the map and the cavalry will free the prisoners.
If you find yourself with enemy cavalry behind your lines, send a cavalry unit from your reserves in the rear to capture them or chase them off the map or back to their own lines.
Hook
Hook - whilst it would be expected of cavalry to go raiding in the 1861-65 War between the States this is not what is to be expected of regular cavalry in the napoleonic period (with the possible exception of cossacks).
A mass breakthrough the enemy battle line by a corp of cavalry is one thing but an odd regiment losing contact with the rest of the army is another. Small forces of cavalry behind the enemy line really ought to concentrate on finding their way back to their commander. They tend instead to go looking for targets and possibly the lop.
Not that I have any problem with leaving reserves to deal with these.
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I have checked, it happens with defensive behaviour and low initiative.
Thanks.
This is the problem, when these guys do this it proves impossible to over ride the AI orders, they will go off and attack even if you try to pull them back.
That's why I specified pulling them back early, that is, before they get into contact and rush off to attack. I'm well aware that cavalry won't respond to the recall after they've started an attack. This is not unrealistic, by the way. You just have to think ahead.
Hook
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Hook - whilst it would be expected of cavalry to go raiding in the 1861-65 War between the States this is not what is to be expected of regular cavalry in the Napoleonic period (with the possible exception of cossacks).
A mass breakthrough the enemy battle line by a corp of cavalry is one thing but an odd regiment losing contact with the rest of the army is another. Small forces of cavalry behind the enemy line really ought to concentrate on finding their way back to their commander. They tend instead to go looking for targets and possibly the lop.
Not that I have any problem with leaving reserves to deal with these.
I don't know what the policies and doctrines were on Napoleonic raiding parties, but we're talking about something different here. You're the leader of a cavalry unit who has found himself behind enemy lines, totally unintentionally. You look around and find there's no way to get back to your lines without going through masses of enemy, and you aren't going to make it. What do you do?
From everything I've read about the cavalry mindset of the time, they'd take advantage of the situation. As their commander in chief, this is what I want them to do.
"A cavalryman despises life..."
"A hussar who lives to age 30 is a jack@$$."
Hook
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That's why I specified pulling them back early, that is, before they get into contact and rush off to attack
Yes, this does work for a while, but in the end, at one stage or another, they get committed, but I agree, your right, best keep them well back till your READY for them to swing into action.
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Yes, this does work for a while, but in the end, at one stage or another, they get committed, but I agree, your right, best keep them well back till your READY for them to swing into action.
One practical problem with the strategy of keeping cavalry out of the way until needed is that they suffer fatigue when moving up to the front and seem not to have the opportunity to recover before they go charging off.
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One practical problem with the strategy of keeping cavalry out of the way until needed is that they suffer fatigue when moving up to the front and seem not to have the opportunity to recover before they go charging off.
indeed!
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is that they suffer fatigue when moving up to the front and seem not to have the opportunity to recover before they go charging off
In my last couple of MP games I have kept the Guard Cav not too far behind the front lines and they have behaved well, if you give them a little time, when in place, they do recover fatigue quickly, and then they are ready to......charge !.