Auteur Sujet: La Rothiere  (Lu 5625 fois)

Hors ligne AJ

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La Rothiere
« le: 20 février 2010, 14:59:17 pm »
I have tried absolutely everything I can think of to hold those buggers off, and get my A*** kicked every time.  I love fighting uneven battles.  You guys got any ideas?

Hors ligne Montecuccoli

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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #1 le: 22 février 2010, 11:00:16 am »
Are you talking about french side?

If so maybe you should try (on the highground on the left) a Wellington's defense, not holding the exposed side of the hill but the lower ground just behind the hill; and maybe a outflank by the river?
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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #2 le: 22 février 2010, 14:16:02 pm »
I'll try that today.  I'll let you know how it goes.  Thanks mate.

Hors ligne Duke of Earl

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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #3 le: 23 février 2010, 02:01:34 am »
Bonjour Messieurs,

ALAMO! .... ALAMO! .... er wait, there is no Alamo ....  :oops:

Well, better try somethin' else, I guess .... one of my fave scenarios ....  :)

Cordialement, DoE

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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #4 le: 23 février 2010, 03:00:56 am »
I did it today.  I had a great result, 12% CEH for me (French) and 21% for the Allies, not bad considering the odds but the bloody game froze at 1530 hrs. The freeze was a shame because Nansouty's cavalry was massacring their flank and rear. I am going to try Monty's tactic next, I know I can improve.  In fact Monte, could you give me a slightly more detailed description of your thoughts, I couldn't understand which hill you meant. I've included a few screen shots.  Like you my dear Duke, I love this scenario, I like to fight battles where the odds are stacked against me.

I'm at the Alamo, bring em on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #5 le: 23 février 2010, 10:38:03 am »
I meant that highground on the right (French Army left), judging for the map you uploaded it seems that you are making a defense "refusing" your left flank.

You mass your force on your rear and right but, in my opinion, doing so you can be trapped to the river (more like Benningsen at Friedland than Napoleon at La Rothiere  :smile:).

Try to hold that large hill on the map right just behind the slope (remember the Wellington tactic to not occupy the hills... this was even used by Stonewall Jackson).

Maybe you should "refuse" your center and try a Cannae tactic from your left and extreme right from the river (difficult one...seems more like a Carnot double outflank.. and it is a really difficult one to achieve)
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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #6 le: 23 février 2010, 12:59:12 pm »
I'm busy for the next couple of days but I'll go for it as soon as possible.  I'll let you know the results. It seems that you lose your LOP's real quick if you don't directly protect them.

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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #7 le: 23 février 2010, 13:51:19 pm »
Sorry Monte, I had just got up and hadn't digested your post. 

Yes I did refuse my left (well almost).  This is such a difficult battle, with so few troops at my disposal, I try to shorten my front lines in order to have enough reserve.  I sent out scouts and I knew he was going to come at my right and center, A1 still isn't that intuitive and it always goes for my LOP's, at least in La Rothiere. If he had gone for my left, I would have deployed Ney's Corps from it's defensive position on my center and replaced him with Victor's in reserve.  At the same time I had my Corps out on my left flank in the deeper forest and 2 Corps of massed cavalry nearby.  I suppose I was almost inviting him to attack there, but I'm still really just experimenting and learning.  I learn a lot about the tactics that work in HLG, by re fighting the same battles with changed dispositions and intently watching A1's reaction.

Early on before the game release, using this type of studying, I discovered that an enemy Corps can be lured into a "Hammer and Anvil".  I deployed a Corps on Diversion in front of my enemy, as the enemy Corps approached him, I retired him to a defensive line. As my Corps retired the enemy followed, apparently A1 sensed victory, as my Corps began deploying on defense I deployed a Cavalry Corp that was hidden behind a hill which was now(because of the enemies advance), to the enemy's rear and flank. He's now caught between the Defensive line and the attacking Cavalry in his rear.  You've got to experiment with the timing and deployment distances for your Diversion and retire to Defense, both are critical but I think I've got a feel for it now.  This tactic has been useful when the enemy has deployed a Corps on his flank that I need to turn without a frontal assault and the casualties that entails.  I've got to the stage now where I'm really concentrating on my casualty rate.

Well thanks for reading the ramblings of a sleepy old Gronard.

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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #8 le: 23 février 2010, 14:10:49 pm »
Hi "old Grognard"! :mrgreen:  :roll: ;)

Some minor things that may lead to a bit of trouble with the tactics (looked at your pics above)you employed  :mrgreen:(had to find out the painful way myself  ;)):

You don't leave your army any room for any retreat movement whatsoever...the reserves of an army were usually positioned out of range, so that when they should have to be committed they would still be fresh in this moment(Napoleon didn't have the room to keep his reserves out of range at Aspern-Essling, with the terrible result that his old guard had entire ranks removed, without firing a single shot n return). Another thing, if you have a closer look at some battles you will see that certain key positions were taken and retaken many times, meaning that corps retired many times to reform, regroup and then try again...if you deploy all your units at the edge of the map, you don't really leave room for such maneuvers...also it looks like you deployed a substantial amount of your cavalry in the front line - using infantry tactics to hold ground...which was one of the reasons for defeat of the splendid prussian horse at Jena...

I think we all have to get acquainted with this simulation -I made some terrible mistakes myself, and still have sometimes the problem of giving a corps the proper amount of time to carry out its task, or be patient enough in order to not to deploy my reserves at the first sign of trouble... -
in real life, at these times it was usually not the objective to take and hold a key position, but to defeat the enemy forces...to such an extent that they were no longer a threat, and couldn't offer resistance any more...the conclusion from this statement would be: if you lose some ground - no problem - if you can defeat the whole enemy army instead...

I tried la rothière a couple of times myseld, the one thing that always trouble me, was to accept that I usually had to deploy a substantial part of my Guard quite early because I was lacking "normal" troops...So if you win la rothière even with higher losses, my "old Grognard" friend, you are doing very well, and should give "Leipzig" a try on the French side, if we should ever get the chance to play this with HWLG... :mrgreen:

CvC
"parcere subiectis et debellare superbos", Vergil

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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #9 le: 23 février 2010, 15:47:14 pm »
Here is the link for the "reverse slope tactic" i am talking about  :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_slope_defence
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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #10 le: 23 février 2010, 16:15:11 pm »
My dear Count, I agree with you 100%.  In this particular fight I was playing with different tactics to see what A1 would do.  I normally do all the things you mention.  I am going to try Monte's and your suggestion of "Reverse Slope" in my next attempt, I'll let you know how it goes.

La Rothiere presents some unique and difficult circumstances to overcome, heavily out numbered and out gunned.  I have found in my previous attempts (fought it 15 times) that the further away from my 2 LOP's I deployed, the longer my front was and being so out numbered, my Reserves had little effect.  So in my last attempt, I deliberately did the unorthodox, I shortened my front, deployed in front of my LOP's, and due to my shortage of infantry, used cavalry to protect my almost refused left flank.
It seemed to work, by 1530 hrs when the game froze, I had a CEH of 12% against the Allies 21%. My right flank was steady and the Allies attacking the right were in big trouble, Nansouty's cavalry corps deployed from my left, was wreaking havoc on their exposed flank and rear. It was really fun to get my own back.

Just thought I'd explain why I did everything in such an unorthodox manner.  After all we can afford to experiment, we don't have real lives at stake, although when I venture into MP etc.. I will obviously command as though I do have real lives.
I have learned more from La Rothiere than any other battle we have, it is a true delight and I take my hat off to you all for this great game.

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Re : La Rothiere
« Réponse #11 le: 23 février 2010, 17:30:49 pm »
You really really don't want to deploy your entire force that close to the map edge.  At some point some of your corps will generate retreat orders, especially if you're outnumbered, and any units that retreat off the map as a result are lost, counted as "left the battlefield".  If you were farther from the map edge, you'd have a chance to give a counter order or take direct control of a few units who were about to be lost.

If you're playing in winter snow, you can control that entire marsh on your left with one or two artillery units.  Remember the old "disappearing unit" problem?  Well, this time it works in your favor.  Anyone targeted by artillery when they're on a frozen marsh (winter, snow), will be destroyed at about 5% loss.  I'm hoping that wasn't "fixed" as well when the disappearing units problem was fixed.

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