Auteur Sujet: Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.  (Lu 7769 fois)

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Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« le: 24 octobre 2014, 09:22:07 am »
Someone is capable to draw playing Wagram with austrians with orendel OOBs (271 vs 211) in solo mode ?

Very difficult.
Always french win easy with massive attack.

Hello
« Modifié: 27 octobre 2014, 14:58:22 pm par Alfiere »
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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #1 le: 25 octobre 2014, 14:45:25 pm »
Ciao Alfiere

Belliard is looking for challengers, I suggest trying out a mirrour battle with him.
As for myself the process is becoming predictable over and above fow and tweeking options
and discipline. Most outcomes with superior numbers favor the side that has them.
Large or small oobs don't make any difference. Lancier and I are opting for middle-middle settings
for aggressiveness and initiative for units above landwher conscript level (they get low-low)
high-high for all elites and guard and special units.
We had a few tests but the outcome remains predictable over the superiority of numbers.
There are no disingagements by AI in fact the units will continue obeying the order to the last man
in most instances I observed.

In my opinion we need random events cards as in the K Zucker boardgame system as well as
a host of vedettes to screen and confuse the human player as to where a real attack maybe coming
from or just consecutive vedette lines to draw an attack in the wrong area.
As it is right now sending a scout and revealing the lines is a dead giveaway.
Most players stack 3 corps behind each other to achieve breakthrough -predictable
LOC is insignificant in a set battle but startegic in preparing in a campaign.
Ground needs to have strategic value to the player directly as to where a player decides where
they want to draw the enemy to fight....ei reverse slope rules attacking a ridge attacking a town
automatically should have a bombardment phase and then the assault.
Spoiling attacks as well can occour but the chance for success is variable.

Terrain obstacles like mud and forests must brake momentum and organizational lines.
I marched through a forest without a road, and I can't keep the pace that is simulated in the
game: I'm very fit and do a lot of hiking.
I suggested for infatry to form into march column at the edge of the forest and march along a
road only cavalry and artillery trains.
I disagree with JMM about roads playing no startegic effect in the game...he did not design them
in for complexity but I don't criticize him for doing so...   :smile:
Join us on Steam by the waygroup name is  Fellow Generals
`` Non ridere, non lugere, neque detestari, sed inteligere``
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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #2 le: 25 octobre 2014, 17:49:33 pm »
Hello zu Pferd

Help put Liechtestein with more cav on the right (of austrians) to attack with cav the french guns and deploy very close the defensive lines of the austrians.

Usually the right french wing breaks easy until reach the border.
Only a time the left and central french corps turns a bit on the left to facilitate the austrians counter-attack, to have  only for a few time a litlle break of french attack.

A screen at 9.02 (one of the many my battles)








« Modifié: 25 octobre 2014, 18:57:19 pm par Alfiere »
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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #3 le: 25 octobre 2014, 17:55:39 pm »
Hello Lancier.

Let the right time to resume playing the battle, maybe in the future. ;)
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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #4 le: 26 octobre 2014, 15:27:40 pm »
Someone is capable to draw playing Wagram with austrians with orendel OOBs (571 vs 517) in solo mode ?

Very difficult.
Always french win easy with massive attack.

Hello

In my humble opinion, I would say that the massive attak is éfficace when an opponent is not expecting it.
By cons, if it is ready for this attack ... It is becoming very difficult for the attacker will have trouble crossing the enemy line in the first movement and
which could result in a bypass that will almost always fatal to him.
   

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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #5 le: 26 octobre 2014, 16:03:56 pm »
Hello Belliard

This battle in solo mode it is only a attempt to find the best way to defend vs very french strong forces that attack in predictable fashion with massive attack.

What is the best way ?
1)Very close defensive lines that only wait and try to envelope with Liechtestein ?
2)or...  falling back though one defensive position after another (how Gunner24 says) ?
3)or attack and falling back... ?


I do not know and try to find the best way...anyway it is a very good battle to see in 3D. ;)
Until now i have not found a draw only defeats. :?

Hello



« Modifié: 26 octobre 2014, 16:36:31 pm par Alfiere »
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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #6 le: 26 octobre 2014, 18:20:12 pm »
I played this battle before the AI ​​is as offencive.
I'll make this battle again, and I give you my opinion. ;)
   

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Re : Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #7 le: 26 octobre 2014, 18:49:12 pm »
Hello zu Pferd

Help put Liechtestein with more cav on the right (of austrians) to attack with cav the french guns and deploy very close the defensive lines of the austrians.

Usually the right french wing breaks easy until reach the border.
Only a time the left and central french corps turns a bit on the left to facilitate the austrians counter-attack, to have  only for a few time a litlle break of french attack.

A screen at 9.02 (one of the many my battles)
Ciao Alfiere,

I've played this scenario and the dispositions and eventual fall of the Austrian left is 'as 'historical ' an outcome as we can expect.
I agree that Lichtenstein would spoil the strong French attack here (screen 9.02) and perhaps that would buy some time but for
an Austrian counter is quite impracticable as the numbers and the leader favor  the French substantially.
If I played the Austrians I would set up as you suggest the Austrians ought to do.

Random weather as in rain and mud if handled properly by the simulation could hinder both.

the three options you listed are valid but the setup  does not produce the elements needed for
envelopment (as in the Historical battle) that is not yet until we get deployment constraint lifted
In this case the French would have to bring the mass attack later on as their left flank may be
enveloped, still achievable with some skill.

As to reproduce the events, 'locked in' as a sequence that you can't bypass with freedom of
planning your own, would in my mind force the players to concentrate their efforts on the
local problem at end. Who can say that the envelopment did not work in favor of Napoleon
after all (as a ruse to place the decision blow).

It would be fun to try   ;)
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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #8 le: 26 octobre 2014, 19:53:32 pm »
Some screenshot of my game solo.

12:18 End of battle

The french massiv attak in center
   

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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #9 le: 27 octobre 2014, 07:52:19 am »
My congratulations Belliard , but you have played with HWLG with Wagram OOb standard and I am playing with HWN with Orendel OOB , more strong OOB for French.
----------------------
Orendel OOB, 271 ceh french and 211 ceh for austrians.

Austrians  134000 men (14635 cav), 414 guns (0 guns 12 pdr)
French  154519 men (23261 cav) , 534 guns (122 guns 12 pdr).

You can retry with HWN or HWLG and you can find Orendel OOB on depot (under OOB section) ,it is much more difficult win for austrians, i think.

you can play with visibility unconditional so if you take a screen is more clear the situation of both side.

A screen of my last battle at start ,very close to draw this time trying with no static troops in defence.

Until now for me is a bit better (falling back though one defensive position after another) , so fresh troops can defend better,but the right time to falling back is not easy to execute)


Hello Belliard

« Modifié: 27 octobre 2014, 15:03:25 pm par Alfiere »
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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #10 le: 27 octobre 2014, 11:02:20 am »
Sorry for the error ...: roll:
Austrians 134,000 men (14,635 cav) 414 guns (12 pdr guns 0)
154,519 French men (cav 23261) 534 guns (122 12 pdr guns).
I better understand the problem ...: smile:

I see that I have a closer .;)
   

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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #11 le: 27 octobre 2014, 12:42:21 pm »
Yes. (sorry, before in the previous posts i was wrong,now corrected)
271 ceh french vs 211 ceh
 ;)
Well ,I bet that win the French.Good luck to the player with the Austrians.

Hello Lancier
« Modifié: 27 octobre 2014, 15:05:21 pm par Alfiere »
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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #12 le: 27 octobre 2014, 16:59:37 pm »
it's a little harderbut the result is still the end of the tunnel ;)
   

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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #13 le: 27 octobre 2014, 17:01:21 pm »
le reste

   

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Re : Make a draw playing Wagram battle with austrians.
« Réponse #14 le: 27 octobre 2014, 17:25:27 pm »
Incredible Belliard,my congratulations. 8)



Hello ;)

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