Borodino map update!

[Jacquinot]

Hello to all players.
I found on Russian reconstruction forum picture of Borodino map which was made by 3 captains of French army - Pressat, Chevrier, Regnault one week after battle. This map was photograph in "Russian State library" because it is impossible to get permission for scaning, this is document of XIX century. On this map you can see all Russian and French fortifications, woods like they be placed in 1812, roads, villages, rivers, brooks, ravines, etc. On original map you can read all information about every fortifications(how many guns, where they orient, when was taken by French arme), you can read how many buildings in vilages and how many was burn. It is most realistic map of Borodino field which show to us all situation on 5 - 7 september 1812. Especially thanks to "Le Grand Armee" for this document!

So, i remake my Borodino map in compliance with this old map.

Post your comments, what do you think?

[Count von Csollich]

absolutely beautiful! - thanks very much for your hard work! - I'll try to use it for the deployments as soon as I get to them....

first on the list however:

EYLAU

[Darsh]

Thx! 

[thilio]

Thanks Jacquinot 
Nice map!

[Alfiere]

Good work Jacquinot and very intersting historical document.
At south i see a easy road to avoid redoubts (perhaps Davout idea to send 40000 men in the night and in the next morning to find themselves behind enemy lines ?).

For me absolutely better idea.

[Bruguière]

Good work !!!

[Belliard]

Je ne veux pas jouer les petits impertinents, mais, je trouve que le déséquilibre entre les camps Russes et Français est trop important...

Mais, bravo pour le travail...! 

[Jacquinot]

Good work Jacquinot and very intersting historical document.
At south i see a easy road to avoid redoubts (perhaps Davout idea to send 40000 men in the night and in the next morning to find themselves behind enemy lines ?).

For me absolutely better idea.

Maybe Alf, but for me main question it is what mean light green forest?

Domeniq-T read on map -  broussailles et taillis  - brushwood, but what mean Pressat, Chevrier, Regnault  when they write broussailles et taillis? I paint broussailles et taillis  like groups of coppices, but maybe i wrong.
It is very important question, because if it is realy was groups of coppices the flank maneuver was realy possible.

[Alfiere]

If for Davout was possible,i do not see the problem.
I think he had examined the maps
Maybe not that road to south,perhaps another way.
But now who knows which way he had in mind ?

[oster1815]

Hello Jacquinot,
It is quite difficult to translate exactly those terms as light forest or brushes because they have different meanings in different countries : in the mediterranean I'ld say "maquis" with vegetation entangled from say, 3 to 6 feet and some trees 10 high. How does it look in this part of Russia , I don't know....The effect is to slow walking, prevent  straight move, hide your position and sometimes make you circle like mad!
I'd found some details in dr Hourtoulle's book with authentic maps and witness illustrations : the infantry deployed and attacked in this "light green"  but the formations look irregular. Also there are sketches of the redoubt and their defense in front : there was a large ditch, the abattis (whole trees cut with branches tipped and entangled and also some areas of "trous de loup" , holes about 4feet deep (enough to break horses charge and slow infantry) not on your map.
Probably you can consider (as Napoleon and Kutusov did) that the south or "vieille route de Moscou" was not the best choice as it was old, narrow and leading to wooden areas which was not suitable for a regular deployement in lines and columns for either untrained russian levies and mixed (dubiously enthusiastics ) french allies. But, good, trained and Highly spirited units may had done it...
To sum up, it was not considered clear terrain and I think  you can use small spots of trees irregularly dispersed to give an idea (watch the Peninsular maps serie ).
For History, was it a good choice from both CinC to avoid the south road ????
Oster

Ps I just read Alfiere last message and I agree with his Davout's Hypothese.

[Jacquinot]

If for Davout was possible,i do not see the problem.
I think he had examined the maps
Maybe not that road to south,perhaps another way.
But now who knows which way he had in mind ?

Davout not examined the maps, because all French maps which French spy buy in St. Peterburg was false. All what they have before battle it is Lobau's sketch map.

[Jacquinot]

To Oster1815:

Can you show illustrations from your book?

I combine French map and googlemap of Borodino field, and you know what? Now on light green areas grow normal forest not brushwood or something. I have one hypothesis - now we all have gas and electricity to heat our houses, we build our houses of concrete and bricks, but in 1812 in Russia and in Europe i think, for this we use wood, so i think maybe light green areas it is young forest which grow on glades. What do you think?

[Théodoricus]

Very interesting historical document.
I know how it's hard to get historical sources.
You had to act cautiously when you have photographed this precious document.

Théo

[Jacquinot]

Very interesting historical document.
I know how it's hard to get historical sources.
You had to act cautiously when you have photographed this precious document.

Théo

Not me, but man who have access in State Library, he say that he can only take photograph on small camera, scaning and photograph on professional camera impossible because this is document of XIX century and no permission to do this. After 200 years Borodino still save secrets . Russian government not republish this map... maybe it is war secret?

[oster1815]

To Oster1815:

Can you show illustrations from your book?

I combine French map and googlemap of Borodino field, and you know what? Now on light green areas grow normal forest not brushwood or something. I have one hypothesis - now we all have gas and electricity to heat our houses, we build our houses of concrete and bricks, but in 1812 in Russia and in Europe i think, for this we use wood, so i think maybe light green areas it is young forest which grow on glades. What do you think?

Your hypotheses is perfectly realist if it coincide with the species of trees in your area. The end result will probably be the same : light cover and difficult terrain to maintain close order,  but not enough to prevent the advance of infantry.
I'll check my book tomorrow and try pictures but Hourtoulle used the old map as a clear grey background with units positions and moves superposed in color... probably impossible to scan.
The book is Borodino by Dr Hourtoulle , ca 2003 edit. by Armes et Collections in French and in English. Maybe you can find one in your library ( there are many other napoleonic battles from the same author/edition) all are well illustrated specially for uniforms and portraits with biographies, also quite good OOB. more details tomorrow if you wish.
Oster