Auteur Sujet: First screenshots....Infantry  (Lu 42255 fois)

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Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #45 le: 06 juin 2011, 20:33:18 pm »
Great News ……..Thanks,


I Know your bee z        but quick questions

- Will map elements be in proportion to Units.  Example with a 1/1 scale will Town sizes be increased to accommodated more Units.

- Will all Map sizes (6K, 10K, 15K, Grand Map ) render the same size elements  or will they be handled in the same way, that is as the map size increases the units get smaller and are stretch further apart..  

- Will Units in 1/1 scale be drawn in there Historical style formations and correct company sizes.  Here is a link showing example of what in mean    http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/infantry_tactics_4.htm

- Will we be able to  identify how many squadrons a Cavalry Unit has in OOB.


Sorry if these questions have been asked or answered.


Thanks

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Re : Re : Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #46 le: 06 juin 2011, 21:08:33 pm »


Il y aura quelques ajustements mais comme j'ai déjà eu l'occasion de le dire, le besoin en calcul est exponentiel (et non proportionnel) avec le nombre d'unités...
Il y aura donc deux ajustements:
a) une dizaines d'entités de plus pour avoir 114 unités opérationnelles et 12 Chef d'Armée / Chef de Corps
b) une unité d'artillerie, limitée à 14 canons à ce jour pourra passer à 28 canons. Toutefois, 1 canon en représentera 2... Cette limitation s'impose en raison de la puissance de calcul ;)

JMM


Donc ou aura tout à l'échelle 1/1 sauf pour les canons qui seront à 1/2, mais dans l'échelle actuelle, les canons étaient pas représentés en 1/1?
 114 unités ça donnerait quoi approximativement en terme de figurine et la limite que le jeu peut supporter?  Si je reprends l'ancienne échelle, le jeu pouvait supporter en tout 50.000 figurines ce qui donnerait maintenant 500.000 figurines  :shock:

So will any or scale 1 / 1 except for the guns that will be 1 / 2, but in the current scale, the guns were not represented in 1 / 1?
  114 units which would give it approximately in terms of figure and the limits that the game can support? If I take the old scale, the game could survive any figures which would give 50,000 now 500,000 figurines

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Re : Re : Re : Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #47 le: 07 juin 2011, 00:37:36 am »


Donc ou aura tout à l'échelle 1/1 sauf pour les canons qui seront à 1/2, mais dans l'échelle actuelle, les canons étaient pas représentés en 1/1?
 114 unités ça donnerait quoi approximativement en terme de figurine et la limite que le jeu peut supporter?  Si je reprends l'ancienne échelle, le jeu pouvait supporter en tout 50.000 figurines ce qui donnerait maintenant 500.000 figurines  :shock:

So will any or scale 1 / 1 except for the guns that will be 1 / 2, but in the current scale, the guns were not represented in 1 / 1?
  114 units which would give it approximately in terms of figure and the limits that the game can support? If I take the old scale, the game could survive any figures which would give 50,000 now 500,000 figurines


Si je comprends bien le concept d'apres mess discussions avec JMM et il pourra me corriger si j'ai tort, les canons sont bien representes en 1:1 a present.
Le besoin de passer a 1:2 vient du dilemme suivant.
Les unites vont etre limitees a 114 pour differentes contraintes. Pour faire Des oob avec le nombre de canons presents a borodino par exemple un pourcentage  significatif de ces unites devraient etres des canons du a la limitation de 14 canons par unite a present.
Pour laisser plus de place a l'infanterie et cavalerie il serait souhaitable de passer au 1:2 pour l'artillerie. Comme ca 28 canons seront representes par 14 canons dans une seule unite, laissant plus de place pour inf et cav.
Comme JMM a dit, mettre 28 modeles de canons individuels metteraient plusieurs contraintes un desquels serait alourdir exponentiellement le calcul que le soft doit faire ce qui pourrait reduire la performance.

Je crois qu'une echelle 1:1 inf et cav et 1:2 pour artillerie c'est du jamais vu dans un jeu strategique et doit propulser histwar comme LE jeu de reference pour tout enthousiaste du genre.


If I understand the concept correctly from my discussions with JMM, and he can correct me if I am wrong, the artillery is currently represented with a 1:1 scale.
The need to revert to 1:2 scale comes from the following dilemma.
The number of units is limited to 114 due to multiple constraints. To make oobs with as many canons as borodino for example a significant percentage of these units will have to be artillery units (as an artillery unit cannot have more than 14 canons).
To leave more space for infantry and cavalry it would be better to pass to 1:2 scale for artillery. This way the 14 actual canons would represent 28. Representing each artillery unit by 28 actual canons would affect the performance of the game as it increases exponentially the number of calculations the soft has to make in each cycle.

I think this scale (1:1 inf and cav, 1:2 artillery) is unprecedented and should make histwar THE game of reference to any enthusiast of this genre.

   
Von Clausewitz

« Modifié: 07 juin 2011, 00:49:10 am par von_Clausewitz »
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Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #48 le: 07 juin 2011, 01:05:09 am »
Nice to read you VC. I tought that you disapeared. I hope that you will join the MP folks soon.

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Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #49 le: 07 juin 2011, 03:41:55 am »
Oh nice! As long as the engine does not equivocate the number guns and the time of  their limbering and unlimbereing as well as gettin taken into  account of the attack and defending as well as bombarding process too much so its not too slow but  in comparison to historical and real life  process of deploying the batttery and the speed of batteries moving around battlefield and such is proportional to the game is all good

AND yes making such scale will attract players from all shape and sizes if right publicity. Yes the old school graphics  not in good stead with newer and younger players but  screen shots of epic charges of cavalry videos of line battles (including charging into each other)  as well as videos from mp games will help. as towards to graphic specification a lot of younger people will probably have  up to date pc specs which allows  scale to be played  with no fuss. But keeping the option of  the scale available to those that may have outdated pc specification will also help bringing  casual gamers! 

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Re : Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #50 le: 07 juin 2011, 08:35:25 am »
Nice to read you VC. I tought that you disapeared. I hope that you will join the MP folks soon.

Thank you, I never really disappeared. I have been keeping up with parts of the forum and stayed in constant contact with JMM. Because of time constraints I have not been playing MP games but more pbem.
I am hoping that there will be people wanting to play it MP in the US so I can join in.

VC
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Re : Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #51 le: 07 juin 2011, 13:51:21 pm »
Je voulais aussi savoir l'influence de la taille de la carte sur la taille des unités, que ce soit en mode le plus éloigné ou en mode très rapproché.

Théo


Pour rebondir sur la question posée par Théodoricus, j'aimerai savoir si tu pouvais afficher les unités dans une taille unique quelques soient les tailles des cartes choisies.
Je précise plus clairement, j'apprécie la taille des figurines pour les cartes de 10km. Elle permet de bien distinguer les détails des uniformes.
Peux-tu garder cette taille tout en augmentant la surface de la carte ?

Beau travail pour l'échelle 1/1, cela promet.
Yves

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Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #52 le: 07 juin 2011, 14:22:35 pm »
If I understand the concept correctly from my discussions with JMM, and he can correct me if I am wrong, the artillery is currently represented with a 1:1 scale.
The need to revert to 1:2 scale comes from the following dilemma.
The number of units is limited to 114 due to multiple constraints. To make oobs with as many canons as borodino for example a significant percentage of these units will have to be artillery units (as an artillery unit cannot have more than 14 canons).
To leave more space for infantry and cavalry it would be better to pass to 1:2 scale for artillery. This way the 14 actual canons would represent 28. Representing each artillery unit by 28 actual canons would affect the performance of the game as it increases exponentially the number of calculations the soft has to make in each cycle.

What a pity! I like the 1:1 scale modification but why is there the limit of 114 unit? What are the multiple constraints that can't be dealt with?
If possible, I prefer the 1:1 scale with all units (inf, cav, art) and also if that means that it takes longer to eliminate the multiple constraints.

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Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #53 le: 07 juin 2011, 15:40:45 pm »
Citer
why is there the limit of 114 unit? What are the multiple constraints that can't be dealt with?
This has puzzled me for many years, but I'm sure there must be a very good reason(s) otherwise JMM would have made HW to a "Battalion" level and not a Regiment level.

Think how good HW would be with Battalion squares, in 1v1 scale......but that is a dream too far I suspect.

I can understand VCs point about artillery, but how many battles really need that many cannons ?....not many I'd say. 
Even using the max 99 (or 100) units you can still get a lot of guns at 14 per battery.
« Modifié: 07 juin 2011, 15:42:34 pm par Gunner24 »
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Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #54 le: 07 juin 2011, 16:50:05 pm »
If it is to much work to set the 114 unit limit higher (I hope not), how about to make a automatic scaling for the artillery units. If the oob would exceed the limit, the artillery scale could set automatically to 1:2 from the software.

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Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #55 le: 07 juin 2011, 22:14:45 pm »
JMM has limited to 114units because of the technical limitation, the computing power is exponential for each new unit and for artillery isn't only a problem of power but also to permit more place for the regiments.


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Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #56 le: 07 juin 2011, 23:00:42 pm »
Je découvre, seulement maintenant, ce que je pensais irréalisable. Extraordinaire !!!!!


Le prix Nobel du Wargame est décerné à ......
« Modifié: 07 juin 2011, 23:35:19 pm par Waldi »

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Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #57 le: 07 juin 2011, 23:48:34 pm »
What a pity! I like the 1:1 scale modification but why is there the limit of 114 unit? What are the multiple constraints that can't be dealt with?
If possible, I prefer the 1:1 scale with all units (inf, cav, art) and also if that means that it takes longer to eliminate the multiple constraints.

I know it is hard to grasp why there is a limit. But believe me it is for the program to run smoothly that such limitation is made. I am not sure how much programing knowledge you have, but a few months ago i started learning programing on my own as a hobby and i can appreciate now how things can look very easy while in fact they hide a very complex algorithm.

Each cycle (with each frame, a good game runs above 30 fps) the soft has to calculate:
1/ the position of each unit
2/ if each unit is in enemy range or not to be fired at and this implies checking if each allied unit is in range of each enemy unit
3/ if each unit is within sight of the enemy or not, again the test is made for every friendly unit vs enemy unit
4/ The status of each unit and that implies multiple calculations, cohesion, casualties, moral etc...
5/ if a unit should rout or leave the field
6/ if a unit is in need of support
7/ if a unit is detached or attached
8/ if a unit has an order or not
9/ if a cavalry unit should pursue routing enemy or not and that implies checking every unit within the cav range too see if their status is to routing or not. How you determine of the unit is in cav range? again you have to check every enemy unit to see if they are within a predetermined range from that cavalry unit. you have to do that for each cavalry unit.

And the list goes on and on because there are many other calculations done in histwar. So you see each additional unit will burden the software even more by adding a lot more calculations to be done. 114 must be the number where these calculations are still bearable.
I hope this was lcear.

VC
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Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #58 le: 08 juin 2011, 13:19:47 pm »
So 114 number of units max per side thats equivalent to 500,000  figurines? Of soldiers and Cav? How does the square react with so many men will it be like a divisional square like in Egypt or like a regimental square?  Will there be different animation of square as per se a box full of austrian or russian? Much like the improvised pike square formation in NTW


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Re : Re : First screenshots....Infantry
« Réponse #59 le: 08 juin 2011, 15:17:05 pm »
So 114 number of units max per side thats equivalent to 500,000  figurines? Of soldiers and Cav?


With the actual scale (1/10) the theorical limit (infantery only) is 50.000 figurines on the battlefield for the both side (200 infantery units of 250 men)

Now with 114 units and a scale 1/1 the theorical limit would be 570.000 figurines  :shock: (228 units of 2.500 men)

It's right JMM?