Long Bow V Musket

[AJ]

Whilst reading the 1st volume of Sir Winston Churchill's "History of the English Speaking Peoples", I came across this interesting passage.  Sir Winston was musing upon the advent of the English Long Bow during the reign of Edward I.

"For the first time Infantry possessed a weapon which could penetrate the armor of the clanking age, and which in range and rate of fire, was superior to any method ever used before or ever used again, until the coming of the modern rifle. The War Office has among its records a treatise written during the peace after Waterloo by a General Officer of long experience in the Napoleonic wars, recommending that muskets should be discarded in favor of the Long Bow on account of its superior accuracy, rapid discharge and effective range".

In light of this observation, I demand that JMM gives us a "Long Bow" option

[Jacquinot]

Whilst reading the 1st volume of Sir Winston Churchill's "History of the English Speaking Peoples", I came across this interesting passage.  Sir Winston was musing upon the advent of the English Long Bow during the reign of Edward I.

In light of this observation, I demand that JMM gives us a "Long Bow" option

Why not, in Russian compaign in 1812 some members of French army remember that Tatars, Kalmyks and Bashkirs riders use bows.

[Doyley]

The only drawback would be that whereas it doesn't take all that long to train a recruit to fire a musket proficiently, it took years of practice and training for a longbowman to become really proficient 

[AJ]

I know it is only a muse ;)but imagine the scene. The French Imperial Guard advancing in "Deep Order" at Waterloo and Maitlamds Guards letting loose constant arched volleys (Agincourt) of arrows from the Long Bow

[DominiqueT]

In theory, it looked indeed a good option. Nevertheless, the Bashkirs and Kalmuks were called the "Cupidons" by the French soldiers. Not really a name for awe-inspiring enemies !

The Bashkirs and Kalmuks not only participated in the 1812 campaign, but also in the 1813 and 1814 campaigns.

The Völkerschlachtdenkmalmuseum at Leipzig even has a very rare Bashkir uniform.

Moreover, the bow was even more sentive to rain than the musket.

[oster1815]

It'ld be fair to say that Bashkirs and Kalmuks were not at all bowmen -  and even more not trained  "longbowmen" 
Their bows were more likely designed for daily life - to shoot birds and small game...
I think Marbot himself (???)  was hit by an arrow and describes it as  a light wound.
Anyway, when used "en masse" they harassed and slowed  infantry, wound or frightened horses, screened formed troops and won precious time....not, so bad result for despised "sauvages" 
I do not remember the refs. but the hypothese of longbow vs musket was widely studied in the 19th century, even on mathematical grounds....Until the advent of rifled musket and chemical primer, the longbow was usually the winner ....if a country had enough really trained men    as it  never existed, the case was discarded....but most colonial armies suffered losses in the "Small wars"  and archery never totally disappeared from  modern arsenals for special uses ( ie. Churchill's commandos and other crossbow silent killers  )
...And the Napoleonic musket primed with powder was very sensitive to wet and had amazing  misfires rates....So, I'll not bet on Deep Order against the "feathers of the grey goose", Agincourt like 
Oster

[Jacquinot]

Ataman Platov and emperors


They met in June 1807, during a meeting of Napoleon to Alexander I in Tilsit (now Sovetsk, Kaliningrad oblast, a town in Kaliningrad oblast). Platova presented Napoleon himself Alexander I, in conveying to the famous Frenchman with his retinue. And after some time had Napoleon's interview with Ataman.


Matvey Ivanovich long Emperor asked about daily life and customs of Cossacks on the Don province. Napoleon, leleâvšij dream to use Cossacks as a shock force in their aggressive hikes, asked all those not from idle curiosity. He would like to learn more about Cossacks before the proposal to move it to the service.


The last point raised by Napoleon to Ataman, was also inspired by practical considerations. The emperor has not forgotten: in the recent battle of Vellau, behind which he had observed, there has been a truly miraculous deliverance of retreating Cossacks from seemingly imminent destruction – unusual for that time. The secrets of these weapons and became emperor. Well then here is what happened: the French Cavalry under the command of General Pears knock Cossack cover and rushed him to chase.


All agreed that the Cossacks had nothing could save. However, the avalanche of French horsemen unexpectedly was literally inundated with a barrage of arrows. Attacking instantly mixed: Roy arrows struck mčavšihsâ jockeys and their horses. After seeing the launching of the turmoil, Platov immediately issued an ambush Kalmyk Regiment which destroyed and captured many of the French.


Napoleon, remembering what had happened, would like to see weapons, which were vypušeny arrows. Platov explained to the Emperor that the battle bow familiar Cossacks.


Moreover, during the battle the Vellau scored Bashkir archers.


The next day, Platov showed the "secret" Russian weapons in action. Matvey Ivanovich long upražnâlsâ at archery to well understand the weapons used by the Turks, Cossacks often had to fight. Skills and useful this time Ataman, with French and Russian emperors their marksmanship.


Platovu had bequeathed him when something as trophies, Turkish bow and quiver with arrows. Cossacks erected the straw effigy, became a target. Platov take one after the other three arrows, and they all hit the target. The latter, to the delight of Napoleon, vonzilas′ in the head and stuffed. Rapt French Emperor òóã same Platovu honorees gold snuffbox with its image. Ataman had to make a gift to hear encouraging words of the Emperor Alexander. In turn, Matvey Ivanovich gave Napoleon the richly decorated with gold and Silver Bow and quiver with arrows.


So Napoleon was not only shown, but also delivered the secret weapons used by the Russians. Then the Emperor repeatedly showed the guests received a gift, calling him "platovskim" arms of Cossacks.

[Jacquinot]

....not, so bad result for despised "sauvages"  

Dear Oster i think it is not good word for Bashkirs and Kalmyks, they part of our Federation and have some rights like other european nations in Russian federation!

[oster1815]

     Sorry if I was not clear !

It is not my own opinion but the words employed by the French ( or occidental allied ) officers or soldiers coming back and writing or telling their stories ....thus in 1814_1815 these russians auxiliaries  inspired terror  when approaching villages on the way to Paris ....
This was specially marked for the Easterners often compared to Gengis or Timour hords 
Also there sems to be confusion between those militias and cossacks whose weapons (composite bows ? ) were certainly more efficients 
Hope it"s Ok now 
Oster

[Jacquinot]

    Sorry if I was not clear !

It is not my own opinion but the words employed by the French ( or occidental allied ) officers or soldiers coming back and writing or telling their stories ....thus in 1814_1815 these russians auxiliaries  inspired terror  when approaching villages on the way to Paris ....
This was specially marked for the Easterners often compared to Gengis or Timour hords 
Also there sems to be confusion between those militias and cossacks whose weapons (composite bows ? ) were certainly more efficients 
Hope it"s Ok now 
Oster

Now clear!

[Jacquinot]

Some picture of Cossacks:

1. Napoleon under Cossacks attack.



2. Cossacks vs Poles.



3. Russian infantry on west boarder.



Here you can see many nice pictures by Averyanov - http://www.art-katalog.net/img1794.htm

[Smythes]

I have had it put to me that the issue of the longbow vs musket is a good example of a piece dividend, certainly in the British Isles. That the absence of conflict inside and outside of the borders of the country led to the de-skilling of generations of citizens. From 1487/1513 to the start of the Dutch Revolt  there was very little large scale English involvement in warfare, at home or in the continent.

Therefore when the English Civil War comes along (where Longbows where again brought up as a more effective weapon than the muzzle loading musket) it is easier to train people in musket drill than a lifes training and upbrining with the bow. Were it not for peace, would England have kept the bow for longer or would it have dropped it for the introduction of the musket on European battlefields. Arguably, is their a logisitical issue also - what is easier -to keep an army in bow and arrow or sho, powder and musket?

A very quick review of an idea about the bow vs the musket....

[Bruguière]

Nice, thanks...