Skirmish formation

[amrcg]

Although one of the selectable infantry formations is "skirmish" I'm not being able to change a regiment to that formation, not even the light infantry regiments. Is this functionality to be added in the future?

Regards,
António

[AJ]

It is there already, I use it but I think AI won't let it happen if you try to do it at the wrong or innapropriate time.

[Hook]

There is no full skirmish formation for a regiment, even for light troops.  The skirmish button you see requests that the regiments deploy skirmishers while staying in one of the other formations. 

I don't know if a full regiment in skirmish formation will be implemented in the future, but I remember seeing the idea discussed recently, when someone mentioned that it would be rather difficult to control a kilometer wide formation of skirmishers as one unit. 

Whole units deploying as skirmishers like that would keep a part of the unit in close formation in the rear to give the skirmishers a rally point if they had to withdraw.  Skirmishers surprised by cavalry had their own special anti-cavalry formation, usually clumping together facing outward.  Not quite a square, but with similar benefits.

Hook

[amrcg]

Dear Hook

I know that at least sometimes complete regiments (or almost) regiments would be deployed as skirmishers. This could compensate for lack of skirmishers in other regiments and would also decrease the casualties caused by the enemy artillery, since compact target was denied. But maybe it is too difficult too implement then...

Assuming that you are right regarding that option, when I ordered the units to form in skirmish there were absolutely no changes. I would then expect that part of the unit would move forward as a screening cloud.

António

[Count von Csollich]

an option of forming entire regiments in skirmish formation will probably be implemented in the future (maybe with the British)
but this doesn't mean that you will be able to put your units in skirmish formations, just because you attack a target supported by artillery - because this was not the case in reality...units would attack and charge artillery also in the dense-line formation...


as for giving the order of sending out skirmishers - you can only send out skirmishers with certain unit-formations - not with all of them! - and I remember that it is sometimes difficult to send out skirmishers too...basically: if you let the AI handle it - it knows when to deploy skirmishers (most of the time  )...

CvC

[AJ]

The Count has put it in a nutshell, I let AI do it. I don't have time to micro to that depth. When I said before "I use it" I was trying to say that in F3/F6 I often see it being done. 

[amrcg]

Dear Count von Csollich

When I say to decrease the casualties caused by artillery, I don't mean attacking the artillery. I mean when you are not attacking at all but just don't want to keep seeing those LI units being uselessly harassed from a distance.

Anyway, the French seem to have done it as well, not only the British.

Regarding the AI, there is an option to switch it off at the regimental level, so you should be able to have control over when to send the skirmishers ahead of the formation. In fact you can currently order a square to be formed even if there is no cavalry or threat of being surrounded.

António

[Count von Csollich]

When I say to decrease the casualties caused by artillery, I don't mean attacking the artillery. I mean when you are not attacking at all but just don't want to keep seeing those LI units being uselessly harassed from a distance.

well most of the time, in fact, the infantry was standing helplessly while being shot to pieces by the artillery (Austerlitz, Eylau, Wagram, Apsern, Jena, Auerstaedt - i could basically name ANY battle) - so the skirmish formations were usually employed to attack enemy formations formed in line and to harass him!

Anyway, the French seem to have done it as well, not only the British.

true, but mostly the Austrians had no light companies included in their regiments, but had special "Grenzer" or "Jaeger" regiments performing all skirmisher duties...(which is not yet included)

Regarding the AI, there is an option to switch it off at the regimental level, so you should be able to have control over when to send the skirmishers ahead of the formation. In fact you can currently order a square to be formed even if there is no cavalry or threat of being surrounded.

I never said that you can't do it yourself! - I only said that the AI knows when to deploy them and when not! - if you take the menu: you'll see that there would be even the combination of "square" formation and "skirmishers" deployed....which is total nonsense of course, and therefore doesn't work in the game!

CvC

[Count von Csollich]

the skirmish formations we all know of to avoid the dense artillery fire were rarely used on any Napoleonic field - usually Units were deployed in skirmish formations to harrass enemy line-units only...not to attack artillery!
the change from dense infantry tactics to skirmisher tactics altogether took place in WWI - in 1916 German troops attacked shoulder to shoulder French trenches and were literally "mowed" down by the machine guns...so Germans as well as the Entente found out that skirmisher tactics would be more appropriate...nowadays (I remember this from my time in the Special Forces  - only 2 years back ) we tend to keep at least 4 to 8 meters in between single men...to avoid casualties by artillery, grenades, RPGs......


basic tactics: skirmish formations can only be applied, when the accuracy of the weapon is increased (which was why they had to form men in dense-lines in the first place, to hit something with combined firepower), which happened with the rifle being introduced....making the British, who used them, apart from the Austrians, the master of skirmishing with the famous 95th rifles

CvC

[AJ]

The 95th gave birth to that marvelous BBC Drama "Sharp's Rifles", green jackets and all. 

[amrcg]

Maybe I don't recall correctly, but I think that I have read somewhere that the French made massive use of regimental-scale skirmish "formation", at least during the 1790s, when the armies were constituted by high numbers of poorly trained conscripts (influence from the American War of Independence?). I agree that in the period in question this tactic was more rarely employed. Still... It was always a possible option, even with its risks.

Regards,
António

[General_Chasse]

Barbero in his Waterloo book mentions that French skirmishers were very accurate and highly feared.

It's also mentioned that entire regiments of skirmishers were sent into battle (for example, to try and take Hougoumont).

[Count von Csollich]

Barbero in his Waterloo book mentions that French skirmishers were very accurate and highly feared.

It's also mentioned that entire regiments of skirmishers were sent into battle (for example, to try and take Hougoumont).

indeed this is true...I wouldn't say entire regiments, maybe rarely, but definetely several bataillons - this is why I mentioned the British in my first post on this! - seeing that skirmisher tactics were so very efficiently used by the British, the French sent a huge number of skirmishers in front of D'Erlon's attack columns....and I also read several accounts of French skirmishers being so numerous, then, when pushed back by line infantry, the retired and came back in even greater numbers...

My above statement was on the currently covered timeframe of 1805 to 1814 with the British not being included...
and in this area Russians, Austrians and French (and definitely not the Prussians  ) never sent out skirmishers from one regiment in a larger unit than bataillon (seldom exception might be excluded - but I doubt it - I stand corrected on this of course - as always, if someone presents an acknowledged source for his statement)

so to come back to amrcg's initial question: will it be possible in the future? - that's up for JMM to decide  - but if he releases the British I am sure that this will become an option!

CvC

[General_Chasse]

Nosworthy, who writes an awesome book about tactics, says that it was customary to sent out some skirmisher companies from a battaillon column or line in advance of the battallion, to pester the enemy prior to attacking and charging.
Once the bataillon  closed in, the skirmishers would fall back or just let the battaillon pass by, and join up in its rears.

[Count von Csollich]

as I have discussed this topic with my fellow beta tester Hook, he made some calculations...

I said that the teams sent out as skirmishers (no matter how many) were grouped in two, positioned in a distance of 10-15 metres apart...Hook considered Nafziger on my statement and found the number of 8-15 there....

there was always a considerable reserve kept in the rear to both, substitute losses and reinforce where necessary - no commander would ever use up all the skirmishers up front...he would always try to keep a reserve...and maybe wait until further reinforcements for him arrive (either ther rest of the light companies of his regiment's bataillons - unit's getting mixed would have tried to be avoided - or maybe even a line company, never the Grenadier company, if it had sufficient training...in 1805 this would have been the case for most of the French units, in 1807 or 1809 even, the losses of the previous campaigns, which could never be compensared in the future, as they made it necessary to recruit many unexperienced young men, who didn't have that training, and never had the time to properly gain it!)

the voltigeurs of the light companies were always selected from the smaller men, due to an obvious reason!

taking the number of 10 metres of intervalls inbetween of the teams of two and a number of 500 men in the skirmish formation you'd have 2500 m of a skirmisher line (HOOK - please correct me on this if I am totally wrong, I can't quite remember the numbers, and I always HATED MATH!!!   )

Skirmishers were supposed to have a mind of their own, and the ability to act and decide indepentently as it was almost impossible to control them once sent out...basic commands could of course be given, but they didn't always reach them, once engaged...

Those teams of two were meant to act like one: while one shot, the other one was reloading...basically one protected the other...special tactics for defending against cavalry were employed - for example how to defend yourself against a lancer...and so on...

CvC

PS: my knowledge on the revolutionary wars is not extensive enough to answer the statement of skirmishers being largely used there, but as I know, the training of these people was very low, so I wonder if it wasn't just a huge mass that was sent forward, a mass from which the "attack column" emerged...but I really can't comment on this, as this is not my area...but I'll be sure to get some reading done on this, as soon as possible!