Auteur Sujet: FOW Experiment  (Lu 11946 fois)

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FOW Experiment
« le: 23 avril 2010, 21:33:56 pm »
Just which setting of FOW is historically realistic or the closest to realistic. This has really been bugging me, so I conducted a series of experiments. I have just watched a Documentary on Austerlitz and read Osprey's clash of the 3 Emperors.
We have undisputed accounts in these resources of Napy's observation position, and what he saw from there.
Basically, from Zurlan, Napoleon, once the fog had cleared, using a spyglass, could see the progression of the 3rd and 4th Allied Columns, from their start position at the top of the Pratzen Heights and their progression down the Heights.
I used this battle, because we know for sure where the Emperor was, what he saw, and at what location he saw it. This way I could recreate the locations on the Austerlitz map and run the experiment in 3 modes. I fought as commanding both sides to enable me to place the troops correctly and toggle between Armies.
At 7:50am precisely, I took a screen shot of the French View and the Allied view. 7:50am is not historically correct but that is irrelevant, I had the Allies in March order and they moved faster than at the real Battle. I took the shots at 7:50am because that is the time from the French side that the Emperor first spotted any sign of the enemy
descending the Heights in "Gronard" mode, and all shots in the other modes are taken at the same time.

1. GRONARD MODE-Full FOW, view restricted to CinC
2. CONDITIONAL (historical delay), view unrestricted
3. MARKER info VAGUE (no delay) view unrestricted

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #1 le: 23 avril 2010, 21:35:46 pm »
EXPERIMENT 1-GRONARD MODE (Full FOW)

As we can see from the screens, if Napoleon would have been restricted to the Gronard mode, from Zurlan he would not have seen the 40,000 or so troops that he and witnesses state they saw at the top of and descending the Pratzen heights.
Therefore, having no proof that the Allies had fallen (in sufficiently large numbers), into his weak right wing trap, his battle plan would have been in disarray. Napoleon clearly tells Soult that he is not committing Soult to the Center attack until he has observed the enemy fully committed to the right wing ruse.

In the French screen we see what Napoleon saw at 7:50am (the time he first sees anything on or near the heights), clearly not 40,000 men at the crest and moving down the Heights. However in the Allied screen at 7:50am, they were clearly at the crest and moving down.

The significance of the Allied screen, is that using Gronard mode Napoleon cannot see the Allies where he actually and in reality did see them.


Conclusion. In this battle Gronard mode may have changed history

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #2 le: 23 avril 2010, 21:37:00 pm »
EXPERIMENT 2-CONDITIONAL HISTORICAL DELAY (View UNrestricted)

This one is even worse, for some reason the Allies got all the way down the heights and are nearly engaged (I must have started them of from a slightly different position).
The fact is they crested and descended the Heights undetected except for a few regiments. Remember the screens are both identical times, look where the Allies actually are then look at Napoleon first sight of the Allies is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #3 le: 23 avril 2010, 21:53:30 pm »
EXPERIMENT 3-MARKER info VAGUE (View unrestricted)

OK, Napoleon now sees the Columns at the crest and descend the heights (which he actually did). He sees they are fully committed but even then tells an impatient Soult to wait another 15mins before beginning his attack on the center (Osprey), just to make sure!!!!
I know he is seeing some forces that he probably couldn't see historically but remember they may not be where the map shows them and he doesn't know much about them.

Now I would like all who read this little treatise to ask themselves a question.
If you were Napoleon writing his memoirs on Austerlitz, using HLG as an illustrative aid, which mode would you choose?

Had to crop the French screen, it was too many Kb's

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #4 le: 23 avril 2010, 21:54:24 pm »
CONCLUSION

This may surprise some. I don't think any of them are right, with "Gronard" (the exception being an army stumbling upon another with no intel) being the worst. Game designers could not devise one FOW that is Historical. JMM has done the best option, he gave a number of different settings so that gamers can fight with the option they prefer.
There are too many imponderables. Who had the best intel before the battle? Did one side interview deserters? Did the scouts get captured? Did someone use a "Signal System" as Napoleon did at Austerlitz?

In my experiment I attempted to illustrate 3 modes. There are those who read this who will point out this or that Corps did this or that differently etc.. The point is, In "Gronard Mode"I brought 40,000 men over the top of Pratzen heights relatively undetected, whereas Napoleon personally watched the last 2 columns move from the top and begin their descent. He would not sanction Soult beginning his attack on the center until he had personally viewed all 4 columns committed.

For me personally, I think "Marker, Vague, Unrestricted View" as my main settings, will give me the enjoyment of a good battle and provide a good workable FOW. I may use "Gronard" or "Conditional" for some of the excellent scenarios that have been created because most of these were "Stumbled Upon" actions where intel was at a minimum.
« Modifié: 23 avril 2010, 21:57:32 pm par ajlewisbrookes »

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #5 le: 23 avril 2010, 22:16:49 pm »
Experiment with full FOW.
(If i have undestdood something)
The experiment is very very interesting, but the austerlitz map is made with satellite elevation?
The heights of the map is real?
Should repeat experiment with map made with satellite elevation method how explained in the file depot.
(sorry for english) 
Danube camp - 3rd Coaltion camp

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #6 le: 23 avril 2010, 22:20:16 pm »
Huge work... just a comment..

Yes, Napoleon was on Zurlan... but Zurlan isn't at the place where you placed him  ;)
On your shot, Napy is on Le Santon...

BTW, I visited Austerlitz and there is a table of orientation at the top of Zurlan hill.

I can't be sure at 100%.. but I think FoW runs fine in solo or MP mode.
The present problem is in PBEM mode because it seems I don't save all informations for the management of conditional FoW.
So, after resuming at each step, it's possible the FoW isn't right at 100% (and I am working on this)

JMM

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #7 le: 23 avril 2010, 22:22:45 pm »
This was done in solo mode, JMM could you give me the location of Zurlan on the map and I will rerun the battles. It looked right in corralation to Ospreys map.

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #8 le: 23 avril 2010, 22:24:37 pm »
Alfiere, I leave the map making to others, I'm not that technical. This is the original game map made by JMM and modded for the old style appearance

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Re : Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #9 le: 23 avril 2010, 22:34:24 pm »
This was done in solo mode, JMM could you give me the location of Zurlan on the map and I will rerun the battles. It looked right in corralation to Ospreys map.

Hill on the south of Schlappanitz...
THX...

JMM

PS : the maps aren't done from the satellite elevation..  It's possible to build a better map; that said, it's possible there are some modifications during the 200 years. It's funny to mix a present satellite photo and a old picture drawing at this epoch.

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #10 le: 23 avril 2010, 22:42:05 pm »
However I must say it is a great game if it is close to these meticulous experiments.
Danube camp - 3rd Coaltion camp

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #11 le: 23 avril 2010, 22:42:54 pm »
Can you tell me from the attached the number of the hill

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Re : Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #12 le: 23 avril 2010, 22:54:40 pm »
Can you tell me from the attached the number of the hill

<<2>>

Just a question. This position isn't described on the Osprey manual?

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #13 le: 23 avril 2010, 22:57:55 pm »
No, it shows it on the hill to the East where I put him
« Modifié: 23 avril 2010, 23:00:52 pm par ajlewisbrookes »

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Re : FOW Experiment
« Réponse #14 le: 23 avril 2010, 23:09:38 pm »
Is this right, it's the highest point