Auteur Sujet: Why fight for Hougoumont  (Lu 16897 fois)

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #15 le: 14 avril 2010, 16:26:39 pm »
General, I agree with you, it's the only thing that makes any sense.

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #16 le: 14 avril 2010, 23:01:50 pm »
It would also be an explanation on why Wellington didn't send in more troops to the Chateau, even when requested.
Lord Uxbridge: As I am second in command and in case anything should happen to you, what are your plans?
Duke of Wellington: To beat the French.

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #17 le: 27 avril 2010, 08:56:11 am »
I guess Jerome and D'Erlon should of used there initiative.

Nap wants us to take that building so we can do the div attacks he wants us to do

So as far as i can tell they go all out for cause they want to follow there orders and do those div attacks

rather than coming up with an alternative way to do deal with the Houg and still be able to do those attacks instead of wasting there reserves and most of all time

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #18 le: 05 mai 2010, 16:08:06 pm »
First of all, great thoughts, Villeneuve. Thanks for writing in my native language and, I regret that I don't read or speak French.
I salute you.

Second, a possible theory with regard to why Hougemont was not by-passed instead of attacked:  under the doctrines of that period of war, it was very bad to allow an enemy force in good order to get behind your own front lines.  So, if Hougemont were by-passed, that would leave a good number of enemy troops behind French lines.

I realize that Hougemont could have been sealed off and besieged and by-passed at the same time, so, my theory is only speculation, because it is not an obvious reason why the direct attack occurred.
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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #19 le: 16 mai 2011, 12:10:48 pm »
I am reading Castiglione (1796) battle and noting very similar to Waterloo.
Massena a Augerau (front attack)  at Waterloo Reille and d'Erlon.
At Castiglione Massena a Augerau make a false attack (maneuver go back) , to attract enemy from original defence,at Waterloo perhaps attack to Hougomont for to have the same effect...
But at Waterloo i do not see flank forces (to surround the enemy ..strange) usual for Napo,only Rellie and d'Erlon,why?
At Castiglione Despinois flank attack on the left and Fiorella on the right.
« Modifié: 16 mai 2011, 13:50:23 pm par Alfiere »
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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #20 le: 16 mai 2011, 15:22:59 pm »
The Emperor did many strange things that day.  However he stated to Soult that the attack on Hougoumont was to be a Diversion to draw forces from the Allied Center, as we now know Wellington refused to reinforce his beleaguered Right Flank, in short he didn't fall for the ruse. Then somehow the Diversion developed into an all day bitter battle. Who knows, but there is no battle in history that has come under as much scrutiny and "What ifs" :mrgreen:

Some time ago we had a fascinating debate on Waterloo here http://www.histwar.org/forum/index.php/topic,4521.0.html
« Modifié: 16 mai 2011, 15:37:35 pm par AJ »

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #21 le: 16 mai 2011, 16:35:33 pm »
Yes,very interesting,thank.
I have to translate and read for a day or two.
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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #22 le: 16 mai 2011, 18:32:13 pm »
There is an interesting discussion of the battle for Hougoumont chateaux which contains many contemporary illustrations, old photographs of Hougoumont 1880s-1900s, present day photos, 1795 maps and first person witness accounts from the French side of the battle:

Hougoumont. Waterloo 1815. Les carnet de la Campagne No 1.
Editions de la Belle alliance1999 .Coppens. B. Courcelle. P. 87pgs
(A4 size) colour illustrations.

(The book is in French). From the evidence the authors argue persuasively the following points:

1)   From Napoleon’s positions on the battlefield the combination of the wood and the topography completely hid the chateaux and farm of Hougoumont from view.
2)   The contemporary maps did not show the chateaux but indicated a small hamlet at Hougoumonts position.
3)   The generals who were sent out to reconnoitre the British position on the morning of the battle to see if there were any redoubts or fortified positions failed to report that behind the wood was a complex of fortified buildings: General Haxo of the engineers reported he had seen no trace of fortification; he missed the barricade thrown across the road at la haie saint and he had not seen what was behind the wood at Hougoumont. Lavaasseaur (Ney’s aide de camp charged with reconnoitring) also failed to check out what was behind the wood.

The authors conclude on p21 “It seems, in the light of the documents gathered here, that neither Napoleon nor his generals had any knowledge of the terrible obstacle which was hidden behind the Hougoumont wood” (my translation).

They go on : “If one accepts the idea that Napoleon was ignorant of the existence of a fortified Hougoumont one has to agree that he hadn’t ordered a diversionary attack on this chateaux. Then his plan of battle becomes more clear”…

They go on to argue persuasively that it is a myth that a diversionary attack was ordered on Hougoumont as part of a plan to force Wellington to reinforce his flank and deplete his centre where the decisive blow would be struck. They argue that the plan was to follow a massive bombardment of the centre from the grand battery with a crushing central attack led by 1st corps D’erlon on the right of the Brussels road (with left echelon advanced) supported by 2nd corps Reille on the left of the Brussels road (with his right echelon advanced). Jerome on the far left of the French line was to move to cover the woods in front of him and protect the flank from any attack. The orders from Soult to Ney and thence via Lavavasseaur to Reille and Jerome caused confusion by the way they were written and partly by the personal animosities between Soult and Ney. Lavasseaur communicated the orders to Jerome first and then along the line. Jerome misunderstood and attacked through the wood only to be surprised by what was on the other side. (this also explains why the French were so slow to bring up artillery against Hougoumont chateaux). Once committed, Jerome refused to give up and more and more troops were sucked into the futile firefight.


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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #23 le: 16 mai 2011, 18:39:03 pm »
Thanks Nix, that sheds more light on a very curious day :!: :!: :!:

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #24 le: 16 mai 2011, 19:55:54 pm »
Thank Nix.
A  good idea was great battery that day,but with english in reverse slope with few result.
« Modifié: 16 mai 2011, 20:19:03 pm par Alfiere »
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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #25 le: 17 mai 2011, 13:41:38 pm »
There are not great ideas for Napo at Waterloo,many errors etc.
But the true point of question for me is "only agaist Wellington , Napo would win,or not?"
Because if yes "Napo anyway fight a right battle and should be acquitted"
if not errors very big.
Prussians,for me, were only a random event of fate.(the faults are only of Grouchy)
« Modifié: 19 mai 2011, 11:54:06 am par Alfiere »
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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #26 le: 17 mai 2011, 17:50:27 pm »
Wellington would not have fought at Waterloo if he had thought the prussians would not arrive: He asked Blucher on the 17th if he could send at least 1 prussian corps which could arrive to support him  and Blucher said he guarenteed  they would arrive. So Wellington decided to stand in defence at Mont St Jean...Even so, as Wellington said "it was a near run thing".... If Wellington had not been on the battlefield would the Allies have lost? Wellington himself thought so and said as much after the battle and he was probably correct. He was more actively involved with organising the defense than Napoleon was in organising the attack on the day....and that told.