Auteur Sujet: Why fight for Hougoumont  (Lu 16892 fois)

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Why fight for Hougoumont
« le: 12 avril 2010, 16:12:18 pm »
At Waterloo, the Allies occupied Hougoumont during their deployment, and the French army kept going at it, to conquer it, losing quite a lot in the process.

Why? Hougoumont was appearantly a chateau with an exit to the rear, not an easy attack base - I'd say, just keep those Brits in there and focus on annihilating the rest of the Allied army. Once you stay out of shooting range from Hougoumont, how useful is it then? So why conquer it?
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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #1 le: 12 avril 2010, 16:32:49 pm »
Maybe to control it and use as a strong point to turn out the British right flank.

However, another point should be, attack the castle to let Wellington move reserves to his right and then smash the left to let Wellington flee far away from Blucher turning Welly's left. (In HistWar terms a diversion to make a deploy elsewhere  ;))

When we talk about Waterloo, in my opinion, we must take in count that Napoleon did not see all the British Army, for it was deploied just behind the hills.
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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #2 le: 13 avril 2010, 04:38:52 am »
Wasn't it sitting almost directly in the way of the French left flank?

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #3 le: 13 avril 2010, 09:19:24 am »
Yes it's true Hougoumont was on the left flank.
But why was it important? There were hundreds of men inside; why couldn't the French just keep them inside? Soldiers inside the chateau are not soldiers on the battlefield.  Just stay out of musket range when near Hougoumont?

Also, I understood there were no significant batteries at the Hougoumont position striking the battlefield. There was 1 main gate, so allied soldiers entering or leaving Hougoumont could be checked. So why spend all the effort of conquering it?
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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #4 le: 13 avril 2010, 10:49:52 am »
As far as I know Napoleons main battle plan was to crush the British center. The attack against Hougoumont should have been a diversion, forcing Wellington to send more and more troops from his center in support of his right wing, thereby weakening his center. Wellington however didn't respond this way.
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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #5 le: 13 avril 2010, 11:36:11 am »
So Napoleon/Reille/Jerome kept sending in troops to lure Wellington away from the center?
But he didn't, so the diversion unintentionally became a main action?
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Re : Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #6 le: 13 avril 2010, 12:31:16 pm »
So Napoleon/Reille/Jerome kept sending in troops to lure Wellington away from the center?
I think so.
But he didn't, so the diversion unintentionally became a main action?
The reason for the serious fighting for Hougoumont was mainly the topography of this area. A mere diversion was difficult, because it was not possible for the French to just stand in front of the walls without trying to storm them.
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Re : Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #7 le: 13 avril 2010, 13:06:30 pm »
As far as I know Napoleons main battle plan was to crush the British center. The attack against Hougoumont should have been a diversion, forcing Wellington to send more and more troops from his center in support of his right wing, thereby weakening his center. Wellington however didn't respond this way.

You are totally correct Orendel! - a diversion was his idea - to make Wellington weaken his centre - but Napoleon and his subordinates never antisipated that the fight would be consuming so many troops for the French side - and as we all know Wellington refused quite early in the battle to send further reinforcememts to Hougoumont, because he knew about the weakness of his centre! - but the actions of Hougoumont can only be explained by the big picture - i.e. the late start of the battle - the bad terrain, the bad condition of the field - and of course the Scottish/English stubborness :mrgreen: 

For years - decades, maybe even centuries historians have asked themselves exactly the same question:
Citer
the diversion unintentionally became a main action?
and the answers are sometimes very different, sometimes quite the same!

If anyone suggests a flanking maneuver to the left of Hougoumont, he should always keep in mind that Wellington had a detachment stationed there further to the rear-left! (watched from the French side!)

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #8 le: 13 avril 2010, 13:51:25 pm »
Sorry for my bad english.

Hello.


Napoleon dunno Hougoumont was a position so hardly to be taken.*

Thats why he sent our better corps with the better french brigade(light brigade Baudouin) in this attack of "diversion".

This error was fatal and france lost the battle cuz  this corps(I) stay fighting here all the day.

Drouet d'erlon or jerome bonaparte were really awesome in this battle.




*Before the battle a captain of the french guard make a reconnaissance in Hougoumont for see  was that.
He said to napoleon : "only a farm and some little woods..."
Pathetic.


Salutations.
« Modifié: 13 avril 2010, 13:54:05 pm par Villeneuve(M) »

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #9 le: 13 avril 2010, 14:08:20 pm »
So again, understanding correctly:

Wellington protected his right with Hougoumont, and instructed his men to keep it at all costs.
Napoleon didn't know Hougoumont was hard to take, and he sent one of his best corps to try and take it, with the hope that Wellington would weaken his center.
Wellington didn't take the bait, so the French kept on going at Hougoumont.

About the latter, Jerome declared that his bro instructed him to capture Hougoumont at all costs. Didn't Jerome know he was working as a diversion? Did Napoleon inform him of this?
Was fighting for Hougoumont the actual diversion, or capturing Hougoumont? Would Wellington have responded if Hougoumont was captured, since he wanted it protected at all cost?

Aah all those questions...
Lord Uxbridge: As I am second in command and in case anything should happen to you, what are your plans?
Duke of Wellington: To beat the French.

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #10 le: 13 avril 2010, 22:12:31 pm »
Ill try precise.


Yea, was really the orders to Jerome:
 "Attack of diversion against Hougoumont, dont use all yur division, dont risk heavy lots".

Why Jerome and D'Erlon dont said anything to Napoleon? Cuz thy were afraid? maybee.
How said to the Imperor :

"Our attack failed totaly, thats a disaster, our losses are phenomenals".........................

So thy said nothing to Napoleon during the battle.


But its important consider this fact:

For Napoleon the diversion wasnt ONLY take Hougoumont.
For him Hougoumont wasnt so hard to take. The orders were to attack Hougoumont and AFTER Hougoumont, and so fix lots of regiments of the english troops in this sector.

Thats why Jerome try take Hougoumont as a crazy man.Cuz the attack of Hougoumont was just the beginning of the attack of diversion and not the ended!!!!!

So Jerome was afraid to said to tell to Napoleon: "I take nothing and the english army hold me with so little troops"
............................;

Well Byng and the english guard need  help Hougoumont but wasnt so hard for Wellington.

He can uses 10% of this army for hold 30 % of the french army.....................

What a so nice "attack of diversion"..............

Salutations (and sorry again Shakespeare! ;))


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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #11 le: 13 avril 2010, 23:26:49 pm »
Villeneuve, I appreciate your marvelous attempt at English, you got your point over well.  I think it's pretty well acknowledged that from a tactical standpoint Hougoumont was a French disaster, Wellington must not have believed his luck.  Here is Wellington for the first time in his life facing the Emperor himself, watching a very second rate French tactical battle plan.
One Brigade could have pinned down the defenders there, so releasing 12,000 men sorely needed by the Corps.

Maybe this topic belongs in with the "Waterloo who was to blame"

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #12 le: 14 avril 2010, 05:13:28 am »
Definitely.  Jerome got way out of hand.  But then maybe that was a good thing for Napoleon.  Stuff him up and kept him occupied for a while.  I heard a comment from someone a week or so ago that strongpoints and villages filled with the enemy were simply attacked because they "that is where the enemy is".  Modern warfare theory is to block and bypass such threat or danger zones.  I have replayed Waterloo where I allocated a few batteries to shoot the farm and bypassed it.  I won that battle.  If I was forced to use at least 2 divisions on the farm, it may have been different.

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #13 le: 14 avril 2010, 14:24:13 pm »
War depot David, I've done the same thing too, numerous times. I've done it in the Talonsoft & FOW series and it turns the flank every time. However hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking, don't win battles on the day.  What mistakes would we have made if present on the field that day?

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Re : Why fight for Hougoumont
« Réponse #14 le: 14 avril 2010, 16:14:44 pm »
Of course, hindsight doesn't mean anything.

I wasn't thinking about, what if Hougoumont was pinned down by just a few soldiers - but I am more interested in: why did they decide to take it? What was the reasoning? What made the Emperor think: we gotta have the chateau?

Similarly, why was Wellington so keen on keeping it?

Villeneuve implies it's for the diversion - and that might imply that Wellington kept his soldiers there to keep Hougoumont as a bait?
Lord Uxbridge: As I am second in command and in case anything should happen to you, what are your plans?
Duke of Wellington: To beat the French.