Auteur Sujet: WATERLOO who was to blame  (Lu 29728 fois)

Hors ligne AJ

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WATERLOO who was to blame
« le: 16 mars 2010, 19:44:33 pm »
Ah, I knew that would get your attention!!!  I have been playing with my Google toolbar Translator and have been reading a massive thread in the French Zone (7 pages).  Our dear French friends (and no offence to my French friends reading this) are positively at each others throats about who was to blame for the defeat at Waterloo.

It's well worth reading and well worth starting a discussion here too. I have learned a lot reading their thoughts on the subject.
I don't really think they've got over it yet :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hors ligne AJ

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #1 le: 16 mars 2010, 19:52:01 pm »
Incidentally for those with a translator, this is the link to their thread

http://www.histwar.org/forum/index.php/topic,2945.0.html

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #2 le: 16 mars 2010, 21:17:41 pm »
I have been following it as well, as best I can with my limited French, but I do not dare interfere. You are a brave man, AJLB.
Has anyone seen my leg?

Hors ligne AJ

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #3 le: 16 mars 2010, 21:39:16 pm »
Foolhardy more like, my dear Uxbridge.  I have just suggested to them that they have never got over it and are determined to start another Civil War amongst themselves.  The Fox is in the Chicken Coop now  :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #4 le: 16 mars 2010, 22:29:29 pm »
With Grouchy's troops detached from the main army I think the campaign was as good as lost by the time it got to Waterloo anyway, the french needed a much more decisive victory at either Ligny or Quatre Bras to badly maul at least one of the allied armies and to stop them from linking up. If D'Erlons  corps had arrived at Ligny  on Zeithen's flank instead of being marched between there and quatre bras all day it might have resulted in a decisive victory against blucher and no help for Wellington.

Detatching Grouchy's troops was pretty pointless in my opinion as they were exhausted from the fighting at Ligny and in no condition to persue blucher.


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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #5 le: 16 mars 2010, 22:53:33 pm »
Ah Smoke (he's still pissed about Keagan), that is a strategic point of view, to which I myself concur, but what say you of the tactical situation on the field in question?

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #6 le: 17 mars 2010, 00:36:16 am »
Despite the strategic situation there were opportunities for the French to win the battle on the day, despite Wellington having the advantage of a reverse slope the various farm buildings, chateaus and the mud. 

D’Erlons attack almost succeeded as it was directed against the weakest part of Wellington’s line.
Even Ney’s cavalry attack could’ve been turned into a costly success if infantry and more artillery had advanced close behind to support it, as it put most of Wellington’s artillery temporarily out of action. 

I think most for the defeat lies with Napoleon, for not committing enough reserves in the right places, and for detaching Grouchy.  The wasteful attacks on Hougoumont should never have been allowed to consume the amount of reverses they did. Artillery should have been sent there to make breaches in the walls. Overall I think a brigade would have been sufficient to keep the defenders pinned down rather than the 14,000 men eventually committed to the assault.
 
That would leave more men to strengthen D’ Erlon’s attack, outflanking the ridge wouldn’t have been practical because of the small villages and streams on the left and Hougoumont on the right. I think the only chance the French had to win was by breaking through on the right. 

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #7 le: 17 mars 2010, 01:05:19 am »
AJ, as Uxbridge said you are indeed a brave soul to get embroiled in a French discussion on who was to blame for the loss of the battle.

I think it’s fair to say that the Battle of Waterloo has been written about, discussed at length and argued over more than any other battle in history.

I decided many years ago to avoid meaningful discussions about the battle as the outcome of these often heated exchanges led nowhere.

What I have always wondered, if Wellington’s army had broken and retreated towards the coast, would Blucher have continued his advance on Napoleons right flank?

But that’s just another hypothetical question! :D

Anyway good luck in your endeavour, I’ll be following your posts with interest.
« Modifié: 17 mars 2010, 01:14:55 am par Fusilier »

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #8 le: 17 mars 2010, 14:17:44 pm »
I don't think one army would've continued to attack if the other had been destroyed,  Blucher would probably have withdrawn and awaited the arrival of the russians or austrians.

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #9 le: 17 mars 2010, 15:11:18 pm »
Later today I will try and post a summary of the thoughts of our French friends.  There are issues I have never considered

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #10 le: 17 mars 2010, 19:18:11 pm »
Well Gentlemen, I started this little topic off, so I’d better weigh in. As I said earlier, I have been watching the posts of our French brothers in arms on this topic. It is curious to observe how passionate they are on this subject, I get the impression they are still trying to find one person to blame and most (not all) refuse to lay the blame on the Emperors doorstep.

I am presenting to you a synopsis of their arguments, which are quite enlightening. They fall into 2 areas, Strategic and Tactical.  I know I will miss a lot of their points, I apologize in advance.

STRATEGIC
Some feel that Napoleons strategy was to defeat both Wellington and Blucher then sue for peace with the Austrians and Russians.  Others, that he meant to separate Wellington and Blucher, defeat Wellington soundly, hoping that Blucher had no stomach to fight on, and then seek peace. I feel that the latter hypothesis holds no water. He attacked Blucher at Ligny first, surely with the intention of destroying him there; he didn’t achieve as complete a victory as he wished and learning of the affair at Quatre Bras, he leaves the inept Grouchy to chase Blucher while he himself goes to deal with Wellington. In fairness to Grouchy, our French friends point out that Grouchy’s troops were tired and in no state to effectively pursue. Here the Grand Strategy is already unraveling.
From a strategic point of view, they raised another very interesting argument.  Why leave your most able General in Paris raising an Army.  As I learned, Davout was given this task. He who could snatch victories so brilliantly, was made head of the recruiting office, leaving Ney and Grouchy to command his wings.  Did the Emperor harbor suspicions as to Davout’s loyalty? Many of our French friends feel that from both a Strategic and a Tactical point of view, Davouts omission as Chief of Staff, in favor of Soult, was the first and possibly the gravest mistake of the campaign.

TACTICAL
So much has been written on the tactical aspects of Waterloo that I couldn’t hope to cover all of them here.  I will endeavor however to convey the main points of our Gallic friends.
Soult was past his best and had already been bested by Wellington in the Peninsula campaign, Wellington therefore had a psychological advantage over him from the outset.  Some of our friends cannot understand why 15,000 French troops, that D’Erlon could have sorely used in his assault, were employed against Hougemont, when a Brigade could have pinned down the defenders with ease. The old one, of brave Ney’s lack of use of combined arms in his cavalry assault, even evokes anger amongst them.  What of Wellingtons left they say, why wasn’t a determined attempt to turn it, made. This has puzzled me for years, surely if Blucher were to join Wellington, it would be on the left flank, Napoleons right and rear. The same combined arms argument comes up with the assault of the Old Guard. Others argue vehemently that the battle was lost due to ineffective preparatory Artillery bombardments and that Napoleon as an artillery man, should have known the cannon balls would not bounce off the muddy fields.
Little credit is given to the generalship of Wellington or the manner in which his army stood their ground.  It is almost as though Wellington was there to be had and the failure to do so was entirely due to French mistakes.

CONCLUSION
The following are my thoughts on the subject, not those of our friends.
Whatever the cause of the Emperors demise at Waterloo, I feel there is no one action that caused it.  Rather it was a combination of errors, both Strategic and Tactical, which compounded in a domino effect. If I was backed into a corner to give just 2 reasons, I would say “Davout & Wellington”.  The absence of the former and the presence of the latter, contributed to all that went wrong for the French and went right for the Allies.

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #11 le: 17 mars 2010, 23:19:24 pm »
Hello,

I am french but pretty good in english I hope!

About Davout, I read that he was not only a great general, but also a great trainer and administrator, Napoleon thought it would be easy to beat the prussian and allies, and therefore it was better to keep Davout organising the army for the next fight...
Napoleon made some wrong choice in terms of HR management, putting Soult as CoS was dumb, Soult having no experience in that. He appointed Ney almost the day the campaign started and therefor did not really know what his purpose was. He also left out Murat who was ready to come back and who would have made the same mistakes as Ney against the english squares...

Then I corps not fighting in Ligny was certainly a blow because the prussian army was not destroyed and Napoleon thought wrongly that it would not be able to fight another day. Then bad luck struck, Blucher survived the battle by a thread and was instrumental in bringing the prussians to the help of Wellington at Waterloo. Gneisenau was very suspicious of Wellington and it was likeky that he would not have helped Wellington, and I think most of us agree that Wellington on its own would not have beaten Napoleon.

Then on the 17th almost nothing happened, and that was another mistake, third mistake, Grouchy did not locate properly the prussians and was therefore not able on the 18th to stop Blucher...

Now on the 18th the french were as dumb as the computer AI in total war: they sent half a corps to try to get into a farm, launched a cavalry attack with no artillery support and then did it  again with the guard...

It is a pity to see that a very good campaign plan, went completely wrong because of bad casting, bad luck and beginner's mistakes...

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #12 le: 17 mars 2010, 23:30:11 pm »
Marbot...what a wonderful and elaborate answer..

I didn't bother answering to this topic so far...firstly because I think it has been done over for ages - secondly because whole libraries have been written on it...and thirdly and most important  of all  because I think that it might lead to a duel between the two parties here on the forum eventually...

So far I'm impressed that noone tried to stir up the other - at least not in the English section... ;) - I really hope it stays that way  :!:

Thanks again for your answer Marbot :!:  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:

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« Modifié: 18 mars 2010, 00:21:31 am par Count von Csollich »
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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #13 le: 18 mars 2010, 00:13:20 am »
i think Ney charge was a waste of material and talent!!! loosing that much cavalry made things easier for the Prussians too,,,
bad timing,, maybe he was drunk...

Flea.

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Re : WATERLOO who was to blame
« Réponse #14 le: 18 mars 2010, 00:19:59 am »
My dear Count,  It was never my intention to start up a duel between the parties involved, we are now all friends and Comrades in Arms. In our nbc clan I myself proudly fight as a French CinC. I also post over in the French Zone and I am meeting many new friends there.
I agree Waterloo has been "done to death", however for many of us there remains a fascination. The thoughts and opinions brought to the table by our friends "over there", add an invaluable insight into the whole affair. For instance I have learned that there is a faction who feel that the "Original Orders" used by many as the basis for their particular arguments, are indeed forgeries.
Marbot, thank you for your insightful contribution to our discussion, I know the subject has stirred up a lot of passion in your Zone.