artillery

[Radetzky]

hi there, i've just bought the game and about 2 hrs into Wagram as the Austrians (using conscript setting)

why does the friendly ai push artillery out so far in front?   It keeps getting cut down by enemy cavalry and infantry. how do i get it to stick close to the infantry? i have ordered batteries to support infantry but then they dont seem to do anything until the enemy gets close, then they rush forward and get cut down . . . if i had the choice i would like my batteries deployed between two infantry battalions and set back slightly)

Also is it actually possible to control units under independent command? they seem to take ages to do anything you order and then wander off to do something else 10 minutes later

i spent ages fooling around with a threatened battery trying to get it to move or fire or just do something useful and all i seemed to do was contribute to it being run down by enemy cav

artillery is the key arm and i don't feel i am getting sufficient control over or benefit from it . . .

but overall the game has amazing scope and potential, it makes me think of an early paradox or combat mission game

i hope some revenue helps JMM grow his team and polish and upgrade the product

[Hook]

Here's an answer I gave to a similar question about artillery:

I've set up defensive lines and had artillery deploy less than 100 meters in front of the line.  This only works if there are no enemy nearby.  Sometimes they deploy farther ahead for some reason, possibly to get a clear shot down a slope.

If there are enemy nearby, the artillery will deploy within range and open fire.  Max range varies between countries and size of guns, but ranges from 900 meters for Russian and Austrian 4 pounders to 1600 meters for French and Russian 12 pounders.  These ranges have recently been changed.  French 12 pounder used to be 1800 meters, but this should not affect the problem you're seeing.

Howitzer range is 700 for Austrian, 800 for French, 1000 for Russian.

Canister range is shorter, 300-400 for 4 pounders, 500-600 for 12 pounders, 800 for French 12 pounders.  If the guns are deploying within canister range, they'll be very close indeed.

They may be deploying forward to get within range... but I don't know which range they choose.  Depending on what order the AI gives them, they'll deploy at a range that their longest guns can hit, or move close enough that the howitzers can hit.  I don't know if there are any situations where guns will move within canister range.

I know one thing that will get artillery deploying far ahead of the corps:  When you give a cavalry scout order, they'll request artillery to move up to shoot at targets they find.  Most reported cases of overly aggressive artillery have been because of this.

Hook

[Gunner24]

I know one thing that will get artillery deploying far ahead of the corps:  When you give a cavalry scout order, they'll request artillery to move up to shoot at targets they find.  Most reported cases of overly aggressive artillery have been because of this.

That is very usefull information.

If the guns are deploying within canister range, they'll be very close indeed.

What makes the artillery select between cannister and ball ?.

I have seen some cases where opposing enemy artillery are deployed almost on top of each other, normally when in a "crowded" part of the battlefield, it looks like they ahve not seeen each other and don't know that the other is so close.  Could this be because both are using cannister ?.

[Count von Csollich]

What makes the artillery select between cannister and ball ?.

The logical answer to that would be the effective range of the type of the ammunition...as soon as a target gets into effective, not maximum, canister range, the gunners would have changed from round shot to canister shot...for maximum impact and results on the enemy...
And I would be surprised if the game would make a different choice....

[antiochus]

 Well if you look at Friedland the French artillery advanced by itself to cannister range against the Russians and did horrible damage to their packed masses.I beleve they did the same at Wagram.

 I've never read anything about the Russians cavalry of infantry charging them to at least put them at longer range.

Conversely the fact that the French artillery did this and it is always mentioned might mean that it was totally out of the ordinary.

[AJ]

Radetzky,  It takes a lot of practice getting used to the way A1 controls units.  One has to remember, HLG is unique, in that A1 attempts to mimic the real and historical actions of Napoleonic warfare, not a fancy computer game. Because we look at a 2D or 3D view and fancy that would be a good place for a unit to be, it doesn't mean that A1 will let us. For example is the unit already threatened, Is it's moral low or fatigue high, is it already earmarked by your overall Corps orders for another task?  Of course you can detach the unit and give it orders but A1 may still override you, because you maybe asking it to do something that was unacceptable in historic reality.  

However you can go to the Doctrine editor and change the way that both attached and detached units behave, this will help you have more control over them.  Remember, that we are fighting a real simulation, we are not playing the average "computer game".  I have learned that when giving orders to individual units they have to fit into the historical reality and tactics of the time and the overall situation of the battle, or they generally will be ignored.

Before I attempted large battles, I found it a great help to immerse my self in Tutorial 3, small scale battle. Instead of selecting Tutorial, select Solo Mode and select Tutorial 3 for both armies and vary the battlefields.  I practiced and practiced, getting used to what I could and couldn't do, and how A1 reacted to different situations.

As for the Artillery, I concur with the above.  Artillery generally wants to shoot at people, so it will maneuver itself into a position to do that, I know JMM is working on the problem of it going too far out.  In initial deployment, I always give my artillery units a support unit or 2.

These are just my experiences, I hope they have been of some help.  Let us all know how you are doing.

[Radetzky]

Thanks everyone for your responses, they are very helpful. I had played through the tutorials and scenarios in the demo, several times on both sides in some cases.

I understand HWLG is based around a tactical ai that tries to emulate napoleonic doctrines and tactics. However, most wargames permit players to control their units. Most napoleonic wargamers are interested in tactics and would appreciate the opportunity to control units in critical sectors directly, without delay, as if they are majors and colonels. The ai can control other formations as the player decides.

Otherwise there's the risk that players will not feel that they determine outcomes of the battle. If half my artillery is wiped out because it is deployed in ways that I think are silly, that it is not deployed carefully enough or sufficiently protected or alert to enemy threats, I am not going to feel particularly responsible for the outcome of the battle.

Also - quite understandably given the limited resources available to JMM - the doctrines and behaviours of all troops are based on the French army and non-French troops behave in ahistorical ways. For example, in the Wagram game I have Austrian line infantry regiments deployed in mixed order with skirmishers thrown out; my understanding is that Austrian line infantry did not use mixed order or detach companies to skirmish in this way in 1809; they generally deployed in line and relied on specialist rifle-armed jaeger battalions for skirmishing or use in woods or villages or steep ground. In this respect the ai doesn't use Austrian jaegers historically either; they seem to be deployed the same way as line infantry.

AD Charles had ordered the use of the battalion masse for assault, rapid maneouvering and defence against cavalry; but like the instruction to detach companies as skirmishers, at the time the 1809 campaign commenced there had not been sufficient time for Austrian line infantry to be trained in the new tactics, most of the officers didn't understand them or want to use them, and most of the senior officers opposed AD Charles politically, so they were rarely used.

So if the 1809 Austrian ai orders my units into French formations and permits my artillery to be run down and doesn't seem to show any awareness of how Austrian troops actually fought in 1809, I'm not really inclined to grant it the respect you are suggesting.

I would prefer to be able to direct my own units in critical situations, especially the guns, allowing for morale checks and casualties etc.

I intend this as a constructive contribution, I understand JMM has worked with limited resources for a long time etc, but the game is now commercial and should be open to friendly critical appraisal.

[Hook]

JMM is still working on a lot of these things.  For example, the manual says that only French troops use mixed formation.  I know there's still some discussion on artillery deployment going on.  No idea when  you might see any changes though.

CBR is quite an expert at handling artillery.  I've seen a couple of replays from his battles that amazed me.  I keep asking him to write up exactly how he gets the artillery to work the way he does.  Perhaps I haven't grovelled enough.

You can do considerable micromanagement already in the game, but I suspect you're only talking about artillery here. 

I posted above what artillery is doing, which should give you some idea why they're acting like they are.  Artillery will move forward to attack units in some cases.  This may be controlled by the initiative and aggressive traits of the various artillery commanders.  I've kept my eye on artillery through many battles, and generally they're doing what I'd want them to do.  It may be that I use my forces in a different way than you do, or that I'm willing to accept artillery being farther forward than you are. 

This is quite different from the earliest days of the demo where some people complained that artillery was too powerful and it was impossible to do a frontal assault on them.  Interesting how things change.

Hook

[GrosPaul]

Concerning the targets priorities of the artillery.

I can understand:
when each unit of cavalry, infantry and artillery are, for example, at the same distance from an artillery unit, this artillery will respect the doctrine priorities target

But how the software will apply his priorities targets when, for example, cavalry, artillery and infantry are one behind the preceding.
Suppose the primary priority is artillery.
With the example of the above sentence, the target will be:
- the cavalry this unit is nearer?
- or will it be artillery because also in his range of fire and his is primary priority although in second rank?

GP.
=================================================================
Concernant les objectifs prioritaires de l'artillerie.

Je peux comprendre:
quand chaque unité de cavalerie, d'infanterie et d'artillerie sont, par exemple, à la même distance d'une unité d'artillerie, cette artillerie respectera la doctrine priorités des objectifs.

Mais comment le logiciel appliquera ses priorités de cibles lorsque, par exemple, de cavalerie, l'artillerie et d'infanterie sont l'une derrière l'autre?

Supposons que la principale priorité est artillerie.
Avec l'exemple de la phrase ci-dessus, l'objectif sera:
- la cavalerie cette unité étant la plus proche?
- Ou l'artillerie parce que aussi dans son rayon de tir et que c'est sa première priorité? Bien qu'étant dans en deuxième rang.

GP.

[Hook]

It looks like artillery will target its primary target even if other targets are closer.  It may shift fire to another non-primary target if it is very close and a threat.  When the artillery runs out of primary targets, it will shoot at secondary targets.

Hook

[AJ]

Artillery still has problems, regardless of range.  Yesterday, during Borodino, I ordered artillery to attack cavalry.  My artillery was deployed on the river bank near the ford in the north,  the enemy cavalry was deployed well within the shortest range, on the opposite river bank.  However my artillery limbered up, crossed the ford and got cut to pieces before my supporting cavalry could help them.  How can this be?

[Gunner24]

The rivers do cause some stange behaviour, sounds like they were trying to get too close before opening fire.....this might be a good case for detaching the unit, making it unlimber the cannons and fire on a zone......but I'm as puzzeled as you about some things that happen.

[Hook]

I just saw a post by JMM about artillery (thanks to CvC for the link):

http://www.histwar.org/forum/index.php/topic,3322.msg43437.html#msg43437

When artillery moves forward to attack, they don't stop at max range, but move to about 60% of max range. This will make the ranges even shorter.

For example, French 12 pounders will move to 960 meters for roundshot, and if they have howitzers attached, they'll move to 480 meters to be within range of those.  Four pounders will move to 630 meters.

12 pounders ranges will be from 840 to 960, 4 pounders from 540 to 630, and howitzers from 420 to 600 figuring 60% of max range.

Hook

[AJ]

Hook, in my example the artillery were a rivers width away, well within 60% of the shortest range.  If artillery at that range is going to limber up, go across a ford and get cut to pieces, somethings wrong.

[Hook]

I wasn't talking about your problem.  That was a supplement to my post above.  I have no idea why they wouldn't fire across a river.

Hook