Auteur Sujet: General tactics  (Lu 6699 fois)

Hors ligne AJ

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General tactics
« le: 15 février 2010, 20:51:24 pm »
I asked for this new sub forum, so I guess I should start it off.

 I personally love discussing tactics at any level but especially in relation to HLG.  I will post what I have found works and doesn't work in terms of planning, implementation and results in variouse battles.  Right now I am making Doctrines for different situations, defensive actions, offensive actions, holding/rearguard actions etc...
MY HUMBLE OBSERVATIONS (Conscript mode only)
Firstly, with the limitations that Grand A1 has at this stage (I know JMM is making it more intuitive), I find all the larger battles are winnable in the Conscript mode.  I spent a lot of time in this mode just to learn and observe the Corps and unit reactions to various orders and situations.  The simple tactic I have employed is the classic "strike at your enemies weakest point with superior force at the most advantageous moment in time".  I have generally achieved this by trying to identify the enemies likely highest area of troop concentration and deploying before him on a line of defence, if their is any chance he might get there before me, I use March or Deploy orders and change to defense when I arrive. I use approximately a defensive force 25% or even 30% less than I estimate his force in that area will be. Usually this will give me an extra Corps to use for my numerical superiority on the attack.

Simultaneously, I am examining his weakest point, is it a flank or his center? (I try to avoid assaults on the center, even if you win both your flanks are exposed but sometimes it has to be done). When I feel I have identified it, I will deploy on line of defense, a force of equal strength to him and have in reserve the Corps I freed up.

When his main force has battered itself against my inferior forces defensive line, to such an extent that he is now beginning to tire or waver ( I look for an increasing frequency of his units routing etc..),I do 2 things, first I change my defensive line in this sector to a shallow penetrating offensive deployment (we are probably of equal numbers by now but his moral and fatigue will be higher than mine).  I make it shallow because I want to carry on draining him slowly, this is not a "General Advance".
Second, while holding steady any other defensive lines, I now unleash the defensive force that was deployed against his weakest area, in an offense of DEEP deployment, either with the reserve Corps acting in Liaison to his flank, rear or independently.

If I see this move against the weak point succeed, I will turn the victorious force against the now exposed flank or rear of his bogged down main force and order a "General Advance".

I try to let A1 do most of the work.  I only intervene when there is danger or I want to change an artillery target etc..  Now and again I will set up mini diversions in the weak area, especially before I order the main attack there (draw off his cavalry maybe)
Lastly, I try to make sure all artillery units have at least one unit of Lt cavalry or Lt infantry, in support.  (Still some problems with support order, but I think JMM working on that too).

These are my thoughts just on the conscript level.  I will post my ideas on the other levels soon.  I look forward to your thoughts and your tactics.  After all most of us are primarily, Generals trying to defeat an enemy, not Wargame designers.

Hors ligne Radetzky

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #1 le: 19 février 2010, 12:43:18 pm »


hook said this the other day

"CBR is quite an expert at handling artillery.  I've seen a couple of replays from his battles that amazed me.  I keep asking him to write up exactly how he gets the artillery to work the way he does."

i'd be very keen to hear any tiny tips that CBR might be able to dispense to noobs about how to manage artillery in HWLG.

should i reorganise my corps to make one corps leader a grand battery commander? or two? but then i'm not sure 3-star generals were grand battery commanders, doing so seems like an exploit, is it possible to set up grand batteries at sub-corps level?

otherwise you can set units to support artillery (i have tried a combined arms chain of supporting infantry and cavalry but i dont think its worked terribly well, once the supporting units are stripped off the battery seems to get run down) or set artillery to support other units, but then they seem to stand around limbered when they could be shooting

CBR tell us something . . .


Hors ligne Hook

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #2 le: 19 février 2010, 12:53:29 pm »
CBR had set up all his corps as combined arms forces. 

He found out there there is a limit of about 5 or 6 artillery units that a corps commander can handle. 

Somehow he was able to get his artillery on the front line of the corps, apparently without micromanagement, and had the corps halt for bombardment a lot.  It was quite impressive.

I haven't been able to duplicate this.

Hook

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #3 le: 19 février 2010, 12:57:42 pm »
I am not CBR... :mrgreen:
but I can tell you this...

A grand battery with a Corps commander in charge with only guns...does not work...
It seems that the commander does not know how to handle this many guns ( I tried it with 96 all in all) He lacks the support unit  to defend his guns at close quarters...and he doesn't handleand coordinate them well enough to achieve maximum success with all his guns..

My advice: have a small artillery reserve in the back and assign the units to different corps as you see fit...You can also deploy a small artillery corps at focal points of a battle (like in Montebelle the artillery reserve) but I don't think more than4 batteries would work too well.... :mrgreen:

I also found out that it is very useful to assign these additional units when a  corps is already engaged..otherwise he might put all his artillery up front for the first fight and lose most of them in the process...Horse artillery of course is better for such "reinforcements"...

and last but not least: As you might have already read a few times in my posts...I am a strong supporter of "non-micromanaging" - the AI takes care of it's unit, usually to a great extent...If I see something I don't like - as haveing to observe how my artiller gets hacked to pieces - well this happened in real life as well...commanders might have failed to notice a threat to their guns and missed the apt time to react to this...so Losses are to be expected to a far greater extent than anyone of us might like it....just like in real life..as a soldier I was taught that nowadays you should have a 10 to 1 advantage in numbers if you want to guarantee success...which unfortunately includes a hugh number of casualties in this calculation...

CvC
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Hors ligne Radetzky

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #4 le: 19 février 2010, 13:41:19 pm »
I can't feel so blasé about my guns. You know, count, that cannon were like standards and far more than casualties, the mark of success was standards and guns lost or taken. It was a terrible shame to lose cannon and more so than infantry artillerymen were expected to die by their guns and in all armies nearly always they did. And, guns cost alot. And, guns used properly were far more lethal than musketry.

So no I can't wave my heavy losses in ai guns away as mere casualties, but anyway it is said that JMM is revising artillery so I'm looking forward to the next revision. 

Maybe I'm spoiled by TC2M, where you control your units directly (though there is unit ai), in that game by arranging infantry and artillery well you are able to deploy the most devastating combinations. There was more artillery to infantry in the ACW but they still had smoothbores especially the CSA so the tactics aren't that different. Napoleon always liked to position his own artillery, being an artilleryman himself. At least, in his heyday. 

Hors ligne AJ

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #5 le: 19 février 2010, 14:56:21 pm »
Thank God you guys have posted (I should have known it would be you 3, where's Gunner 24).  I asked for this Sub Forum and I was beginning to think no one was interested but now we have a lively dialogue.

I think your observations about Grand Batteries are interesting and I will have a look at that one this morning. I fall somewhere between the Count and Radetzky's view.  I know I am going to have artillery losses (which will be lessened when JMM has fixed Support) which I am prepared, as CinC to accept.  However like Radetzky I want to use my artillery to inflict "Shock and Awe" in the most efficient way.  I try to keep Foot Artillery as close to the Corps front lines as much as possible and give it Lt cav and Inf support.  I use Horse artillery with Lt cavalry support for my "Special Missions".  Like our Dear Count, When I have set my Battle in motion I try to sit back and observe, letting A1 do most of the work, I only Micromanage to put out fires or set up small scale diversions (I love to draw off enemy cavalry just before a Corps attack).

One such emergency occurred yesterday.  I was fighting Raz's latest scenario and doing quite well, by my own bad planning I had allowed an elite enemy infantry regiment to penetrate my center and he was going "Hell for Leather toward my LOS. I dispatched my own elite infantry to intercept him but they were so well matched that the enemy after each firefight just kept on retiring toward my LOS, at one stage it actually changed color.  I rescued the situation by bringing in the Horse artillery, I had the artillery bombard him then canceled his order (can't get infantry to attack a unit already being attacked), had infantry attack, then repeated the whole thing over and over until he routed off the map, he was really tough.

I do agree with Radetzky about the value of the Artillery.  This was a time of change in Warfare, artillery was becoming more accurate and more powerful.  By the dawn of the 1800's a generally inferior force with superior artillery with well trained commanders, had an advantage on the Field.  Napoleon prized the value of his artillery and turned many dangerous situations by its skillful use.

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #6 le: 19 février 2010, 21:23:37 pm »
Well, thanks again for these comments, next game I will play around with the OB a bit more and perhaps concentrate the  artillery under fewer commanders and as the count suggests retain some guns in the reserve. But is this really a strategy to cope with the peculiarities of the ai rather than anything historical?

I'll see if I can replicate CBR's tactics but if Hook hasn't, I will only do so by luck, I suspect.

It was said elsewhere that the regimental ai will always defend against the nearest threat; this is the same in TC2M and enables you to gain maximum benefit from cannister or grape, so long as the supporting infantry are closer to the enemy than the guns. The enemy must engage your infantry while being raked with cannister, which they cannot stand for long. If the guns are closer to the enemy in HWLG the crews will be disabled by musketry and the combined arms effect is lost. And I think cannister is significantly less dangerous in HWLG than in TC2M, or maybe there's fewer artillery concentrations. In TC2M, and presumably in Gettysburg (which is coming out soon and will be a direct competitor to HWLG) overcoming artillery is a dangerous, bloody and difficult operation that takes a great deal of planning and teeth-gritting as another battalion is gutted by those horrifying guns.     

Hors ligne Radetzky

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #7 le: 19 février 2010, 23:07:21 pm »


Anyway, enough about guns. In my Wagram game I was impressed with the impact of my reserve cavalry corps; the main French attack had gone in on the centre around Wagram and I ordered the reserve cavalry up to engage its left on a deployment order. They moved from their position on the high ground on the road to to Znaim but individual regiments, I guess because they were on an offensive setting, got drawn through the infantry frontline as they passed behind it, charging the enemy and in most cases driving them off.

By the time they got near to Wagram itself the remaining heavy cavalry regiments were exhausted after marching a couple of miles, but threw themselves on the enemy regardless. Next time i will have to position cavalry nearby and let it rest before committing it.

But the net result was excellent; the French must also have been tired by their march from the Danube. The Austrian cavalry drove off the infantry corps attacking the Austrian right and some French cuirassiers that had been instrumental in destroying the grenadiers around Wagram (making up for the grenadiers, a line regiment garrisoning Wagram itself drove off all comers including the young guard; I suspect the combat bonus for defending built up areas is a little too high). Mamelukes of the Guard were captured and led away to the rear!

The cavalry very nicely prepared the way for the Austrian right wing to go on the offensive but I have now committed all my bits, which would be rash against a human player or with fog-of-war.

I like the distinction between flight and rout; I have not come across it before and it is a nice idea.




Hors ligne Hook

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #8 le: 19 février 2010, 23:19:17 pm »
Citer
Gettysburg (which is coming out soon and will be a direct competitor to HWLG)

It's not a competitor.  It won't be even close until someone comes out with a mod that makes it possible to fight the American Civil War wearing Napoleonic uniforms.  And then it won't be even close.

I loved TC2M, but it's still an ACW game, and I prefer Napoleonics. 

Hook

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #9 le: 20 février 2010, 22:45:52 pm »
Citer
(I should have known it would be you 3, where's Gunner 24).
I'm here, but not able to help much, this is such a massive game I'm no where near to knowing the correct tactics yet, which kind of makes it all the more fun, it's not something that is fixed, so many things to take into account in so mant different situations. 

A few basic things I've noticed - from PBEM and MP, not SP are :
I do not like the really large Artillery Corps, I found when you make a big CEH random OOB you normally get one very large artillery corps......I prefer to spread my cannons between the various other Corps and I like to have some support for the cannons within the (smaller reserve) artillery corps, it might not be "correct" but I prefer it - so far.

If I see a artillery battery going to far ahead, I hit unlimber guns, that stops them !.

Cavalry UNsupported tend to get taken prisoner in mass, not sure if this is right or not, but it happens at the moment.....I've found that out twice now, to my cost.

Defensive lines can be battle winners, I did think they were too strong to start with but now begin to think they are as they should be, good formations in good defensive positions attacked head on should make a good job of repelling the attack most times.

Villages, hamlets and farms etc do help to anchor the defensive lines - a bit too well ?....maybe, maybe not.  Time will tell.

No matter how big maps are the same basics apply in LG as in TW games, I can here many saying NO THEY DONT, but I think they do.......if you don't want to attack head on you have to attack from the flank, the flank is at the map edge, as in TW games.

The starting positions of the Corps are VERY important, a bit obvious I know, but if you are out of position at the start, you may not have time to re-deploy and recover.

In about a years time I may know what I'm talking about, untill then it's all experiments for me, trial and error.

Citer
It won't be even close until someone comes out with a mod that makes it possible to fight the American Civil War wearing Napoleonic uniforms.  And then it won't be even close.
I agree 100%, but many others will not, this game engine is very popular and a Nap mod will no doubt be popular as well, but why bother when you have LG ?.

Hors ligne AJ

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #10 le: 23 février 2010, 03:34:55 am »
I tried out our Counts tactic at La Rothiere today.  Instead of dishing out Oudinot's artillery to the Corps during initial deployment, I kept his Artillery Corps intact as a Reserve.  I deployed him just behind my defensive lines, in order that his batteries could be called upon, by A1, to assist a Corps in trouble. 
Bearing in mind how out gunned I was by the Allies, it also enabled ME to call on a battery or two to give me local superiority, and re attach it when done. 
I like it, I'm going to play with it some more, I'll let you all know my observations.

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Re : General tactics
« Réponse #11 le: 18 mars 2010, 00:22:12 am »
for an artillery corp,, i usually use 3 groups of 18 or so 12pounders,,, the key is deploy them on a defensive line
as support 3 or4  regiments  of hussars from other cav corp,,,, they cover each other pretty well,,,and give freedom for the cannons to do the damage.
other useful tool is make some small corp...(depending on the CEH),you can deploy a big corp,, and a couple of small ones (3 or 4 regiments ,sometime just grenzers or light inf),on the flanks.. make easier to keep good corps on reserve and put the small one to support .

Flea,