To JMM

[von Döbeln]

I just wanted to say - please bear with us JMM! Many times we make complaints about or propose things because we just have missed it/don't know the key command for it/are too used to "click and drag" games/etc to realize that it has already dealt with in a well thought out way in the game. So sorry for any and all "unnecessary" complaints and suggestions. We are just overly excited about this splendid game!

LvD

[JMM]

Thank you a lot...
To be honnest, I think there is a light problem with this game.
HW:LG is a FPC (First Person Commander), one of the first, (maybe the first) to propose this kind of gameplay.
The task for a commander is to see the wall, not the brick.. and I think almost all game propose to control each brick.
So, the first thing is : ok, the Corps AI is right, Regimental AI is right (no too bad  and we have to use these AI...
Sometimes, their reaction will be wrong, sometimes right.. and CinC has to take care about this difference between his wish and the reality.
That said, I can't say : OK, the AI is 100% right; maybe there are some bugs, but I am no sure these bugs are really annoying.
(and my first task is to snap the real problem)
Sure, my intention is to continue with several versions, step by step.
By the other hand, together we have to understand this new kind of gameplay....
Like the phone with the automatic writing, hit "dezlogheoz" to get "it's right"...

Clear?

JMM

So, I am thinking to do several screenshots or video showing the method to control your army.
Hook, Gunner24 and perhaps some other Grognards can help me in this way... if they are right, I can open a special Forum for meeting.

[JCM101]

Thanks JMM - this is a valuable observation - I realised reasonably quickly that HWLG plays differently because of the AIs' natural disposition - we all have to unlearn what years of less 'intelligent' games have forced us to become accustomed to!

That said - there is also room for disobedient commanders!   

[Hook]

I'll be happy to help any way I can.  I don't have video software, but if you know of free stuff, I'll check it out.  Screen shots are no problem.

There have been two games that have done something like the First Person Commander. 

Peter Turcan's Waterloo didn't give you a first person view, but limited your view to above and behind the commander.  You typed orders in English and they were sent to your corps commanders with delays, and the orders could be lost or intercepted.

Take Command is a game closer to HWLG but is about the American Civil War.  While you can fly over the battlefield if you wish, it is also possible to lock your viewpoint to a specific commander.  Orders are sent by couriers, who can be lost, in which case another courier is sent automatically.  It's quite good.  It's just not Napoleonics.

Hook

[Ras]

So, I am thinking to do several screenshots or video showing the method to control your army.
Hook, Gunner24 and perhaps some other Grognards can help me in this way... if they are right, I can open a special Forum for meeting.

That would be great.
I admit that I still have trouble to see my role in the game beyond the initial planning.
(I initially thought LG would be more like Take command)
In a Multiplayer game, if the unit limit is 100 and you play 4vs4, then each player gets about 25 units to control. You'll probably want to divide them into two corps. So you control 2 corps with 12 units each. After agreeing with the other players on a tactical plan and giving your two corps their initial commands, maybe even a sequence of commands, then what do you do?
You're supposed to trust your corps AI to position the troops in the best way.
There's no way to give orders between Corps and regiment as it is now, and even if there was JMM feels it's not necessary.
So, besides just watching, which isn't really playing, that leaves ordering the regiments yourself. But then you take away from the forces of the corps and influence the CC AI. It may even refuse to let you detach the units.
Sure, in a large solo game you coordinate 11 corps and maybe a few detachments and there's plenty of evaluation and observation going on but still, you only control 11-20 "units" or entities unless you take control of more detached units.
I'm not sure if I'm making sense to you, maybe I'm just not seeing it.
It would therefore be really nice to read an AAR from a players perspective, describing his choices, what he has done with his units etc., etc. Everything you would tell a blind person sitting beside you when playing.

Ras

[GrosPaul]

Dear english speakers, below is a translated text from the french forum. I do it in order to ot let you ignore my thinking.

I am more and more convinced that most of those who vote "against" will be the less inclined to pay for the complete program, if they deign pay for this face the urchins in their pockets.

Indeed, How explain that they can be satisfied with a tiny demo, whereas: -
after the testers the complete version is less subject to "bugs"?
- Several offer to pay for a beta version of complete game.

Other quirk JMM you seem wallow in a kind of track garage which is the demo. More buggy as the complete version, according to the testers for two years!. Why would we doubt their word???

Thus, less than fail once more to his word that the complete version will be available for 31 December 2009 at the latest, there are only three weeks before to the release of the "thing".

JMM, please do not misunderstand. I am strongly avid to practice the complete version, even if incomplete, as well as it has been proposed on the forum english.

That is basically, what i propose :
- you will offer download against payment, the full version (yes with some flaws, we know . All the IA would not yet operational, we know );
- you open a forum accessible only to holders of this program. Thus, these will office of testers really motivated (yes, is that they will have been paid the braves!) . No baffles on details really secondary, this would be the strong!

What do you JMM? going forward, sabre clear! Hèh this is not by chance that my avatar is a hussar ("a hussar which is living following 35 years is a jean-foutre", in a few months I have the double, but I try to catch up with me . Joke aside, on the substance,i am quite serious).

I come back to the demo. How to explain this hard on this secondary objective which, if it continues repel the timetable close to indefinitely?

Would you not fallen into the trap of the vexation caused by the refusal of ---------? If yes, I would urge you, catch yourself. There is no shame to recognize have fallen into a trap also sneaky psychologically and in which we would all have stumbled. On the contrary, it would be fair-play. "Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum" (thanks to pages roses of the "Petitl Larousse Illustraté"! For a semblance of clearcoat cultural, nothing of such! Note added for my english friends, it is a dictionnary with some pages with latin expressions).

Do not lose the cap, the priority objective is and must remain the complete game (even if ... yeah, yeah we well know ).

Cordially,
GP.

[Gunner24]

So, I am thinking to do several screenshots or video showing the method to control your army.
Hook, Gunner24 and perhaps some other Grognards can help me in this way... if they are right, I can open a special Forum for meeting.

I'm happy to help, if I can.

I cannot pretend to be an "expert" but I now find my first thoughts (on day one of the demo) where about as wrong as they could be.

I'm finding it very easy to control the Corps and everything works pretty well, with a few odd exceptions here and there, which may yet be explained.

[Gunner24]

The task for a commander is to see the wall, not the brick.. and I think almost all game propose to control each brick.

I like that statement, as each day goes I agree more and more with this idea, it's the BIG moves that are important, if you get them right you don't have to worry about the small moves.

I've been watching the 3d map in some detail and "results" are making a lot of sense, but sometimes the graphics don't appear to show the detail of these actions as we might expect, which makes the micro management (mm) even harder.....by the time the game arrives I don't think I'll be making any attempts to mm anything - except perhaps the odd artillery battery here and there and a little Cav recce, but actions like trying to make a Regiment attack at spot A is not what this games is about.

[Hook]

I cannot pretend to be an "expert" but I now find my first thoughts (on day one of the demo) where about as wrong as they could be.

That's the problem with very complex games.  First impressions, before you learn how things work, can often be of frustration.

I'm no expert either, but I'm finding it easy enough to get my plans carried out on the battlefield.  We need to put together some "tutorials" for beginners to help them through the steep learning process and make the first impressions as favorable as possible.  Because the game really is fun.

It would probably be good to eventually have a variety of these written by different people with different viewpoints.

Hook

[Gunner24]

We need to put together some "tutorials" for beginners to help them through the steep learning process and make the first impressions as favorable as possible

That is a sound idea, but a lot harder than it sounds because "things" happen which make it very hard to say, do this and so an so will happen, because the inbuilt AI may make something different happen.

I do think eveyone has to really understand this is a "big picture" game and watching it on the 3d map (which I always do, as soon as soon as I've finished the orders) can lead to some head scratching, like in the picture example I posted about the Inf attacking the artillery.

The test of how good this really is, is to look at the battle stats at the end, this shows the kind of results that would have happened in these kinds of battle, but worry about every little reason behind every little engagement in a massive scale will drive us all mad.

It's a new concept and will take a lot more than a few weeks to get the hang of, and that has to be the sign of a great lifetime game........now then, who will be the first to get an MP game going when we get the final game ?.

[Montecuccoli]

This game is a real revolution on pc gaming... it is a Kriegspiel on desktop... for everyone who played tabletop wargames and (always) made his own tabeltop rules (i made several of them) this is a dream come true 

[Darsh]

This game is a real revolution on pc gaming... it is a Kriegspiel on desktop... for everyone who played tabletop wargames and (always) made his own tabeltop rules (i made several of them) this is a dream come true 

So true, I hope that many wargamers but also many beginners want to try and enjoy this wonderful game.

[englishoo7]

This game is a real revolution on pc gaming... it is a Kriegspiel on desktop... for everyone who played tabletop wargames and (always) made his own tabeltop rules (i made several of them) this is a dream come true 

I second that!

[Gunner24]

I hope that many wargamers but also many beginners want to try and enjoy this wonderful game

Agreed here, that's why some "help" is needed to encourage people who may take a quick look and think it's too difficult to be enjoyable......I have found that the best games (like golf) are always hard, anything easy is lacking depth and repeat play.

[englishoo7]

I was initially caught off-balance by the demo and I am very interested in this era. I wonder if there is simply too much for your average buyer and it needs to be scaled down a bit. Infantry v infantry and cavlry v cavalry for instance before the deployment of whole Corps and Armies?