HistWar
HistWar (English zone) => General discussions => Discussion démarrée par: Simon le 04 juin 2014, 18:22:36 pm
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There has not been an update for half a year and it is not like the game does not need one! The current version does not even associate regiments with brigades properly (so how is the AI working really?). I'm informed that an artillery battery has been destroyed - in the first 30 seconds, before anything has moved, much less closed to artillery range.
After all these years, I was hoping to have something playable by now!!!
And before anyone starts on an indignation trip, please remember that I have now bought this game twice - without ever being able to play it once...
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Good points.
I feel the same way, bought twice. Can't believe I fell for the same hype twice. Won't be spending any more on this dead horse.
Suppose to have been updated in February.
Not only are the patches/upgrades lacking but also the information to explain to paying customers what is going on.
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Yes indeed, there are some questionable things, I guess.
JMM formerly announced, that the planned upgrades will be presented in time, because most of the features were already completed, and the upcoming could be implemented without mayor problems.
Of course this fact became part of our expectations.
Also the current frequency of patches is a certain aspect, since there are issues to be overhauled without any doubt.
Still I believe the Histwar Team is more a one-man-army than a team. Although there are people other than JMM who might be working on it a lot, JMM himself probably manages more than 90% of the whole project.
BTW I was asking myself what happened to graphics-guy, Romain. Wether his job might be mostly completed, or he isnt active any more for some reason? Fact is, that his last posting is from the last year.
Finally the HistWar-affine got to realize, that the whole development of the project is a history of delays. I follow the story since about 2006, when people often visited the website of a certain puplisher awaiting the soon announced release. Then is took another couple of years for HW:LG to appear.
We all, and probably also game developers underestimate things. Especially the creation of such a complex AI system, which the game longs for, was an outstanding feature in the world of computer-games, if it could finally be sucessful.
I am rather sure that there is a will to carry on and to finalize the project to an achievable end. Always remember that much of HW is about idealism, not nessecairily commercial motivation.
When HW:N was released in an early state, we ve been informed that it is also about founding-means to save the ongoing project.
As another poster mentioned before: Its a matter of patience and tolerance in spite of the complexity of programming and underestimating the unforeseen problems.
I dont know myself, if in the end HW will be completed to a satisfying state. But I believe JMM continues with all he can to aim for that target.
ATM I prevent myself from frustration by playing rarely and not participating in MP. Many things in the game already work rather nice, but unfortunately some stupid actions of the AI or the engine can ruin a well going process.
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The HW team works a lot on all tasks...
a) the new shell (histwar.exe) is operational on Vista and W7/8... unlucky, after updating our developing tool (Visual Studio), we have to adjust the parameters for building the XP version... This new version will be implemented in the next release.
b) We are working on the implementation of the new GUI for HW:N. After a first "bad implementation", the first part of the new GUI is running fine. We'll display some screenshots about this new GUI. Elie (Von-Clausewitz) is working on the second part and we hope good results very soon.
c) Romain works on the graphics. New buildings are ready and included in the next version. Romain is working on the set of new animations.
d) During these last months, I worked on different parts:
- implementation of new process for organising the buildings,
- new structure of program in order to share the tasks GUI and 3D Displays in two parts
- precise definition of AI (Division, Brigade)
- huge activity for fixing the different bugs such as bad behaviours of Artillery, locking of Corps, crossing on the bridge and so on,... but yet there are some bad behaviours and I must fix these issues; this activity needs a lot of time... and I can't go faster...
You are right... we are late on the planning... I hope we'll add no new time for the development.
Sorry for the delay... No a real news : I would like to quickly finish ;)
My intention is that everyone is happy with this project begun 20 years ago... and I hope I can give you the best...
JMM
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Thanks for the update JMM.
HW has been (or rather IS) one heck of an undertaking, I think it fair to say it has taken a lot of patience from EVERYONE to stay with it due to all kinds of difference reasons. I have been around since about 2003-04 (ish) and have played MP since the very first day in Jan 2010 when HWLG was released. Even I have found things very hard this last few months, but HW is unlike any other game I have ever seen (or ever will see for that matter) and deserves a while longer for JMM (and small team) to get it right. There is a lot of "good stuff" on the way once the "bugs" and "technical issues" have been fixed.
Answer to question : No, but most will understand why some people would say yes, as on a bad day, I have wondered the same thing, but on a good day, I think we have to give JMM more time.......I have often wondered if this is too much for one person (to do the guts of the programming I mean) but it is so very complex maybe that is the only way it could ever have been made. It is clear no "commercial" Company will ever even attempt such a massive undertaking, so it is HW, or nothing - well worth a serious thought if NAP warfare is your main (or only) interest !!.
Roll on the next fully working HWN patch that people can get behind and show some support for, perhaps things will look better then, but mean while, count to 100, slowly, and hold on..............
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The HW team works a lot on all tasks...
JMM
Thanks for these news on your works.
Keep heading towards the goal !
Théo
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Like Sandman I have stopped playing HWN. I wait for the improvements patiently. I don't want to spend any more time learning the interface if it is going to change.
JMM, your blog has not updated since March 14. This makes no difference to me, I have already paid for HWN. But it must surely work against newcomers who may well conclude that nothing is happening with the development. A few words perhaps once a week would show that work is continuing.
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At one time, the slightest hint of criticism would have produced an avalanche of denial and indignation, so it is welcome that there is a more realistic view of things.
Perhaps the reason for this is the time-scale over which this project has now ran. It's been so many years now that one is forced to wonder if a satisfactory conclusion will ever be reached. The sheer number of immediately evident errors is worrying and the thought occurs as to how many problems there may be under the surface - say with the AI. There are too many problems to list here.
The UI has always been a huge shot in the foot. It's difficult to imagine an interface that could be worse (sorry JMM but it's true). All the principles that apply to human assimilation of information are violated. It's often difficult to discriminate between a bug and a misunderstanding of the interface.
I'm not optimistic that a new interface will be much better though - or at least not as good as it should be. I would have designed and programmed it myself a year ago if asked. I guarantee everyone would be very pleased.
Realistically, the game remains unplayable as anything approaching a 'realistic' simulation. That the rate of progress has become so slow is indication of some or all of the following: -
Waning enthusiasm for development (perhaps understandable in the light of poor sales performance).
A flawed original design platform that is making the elimination of problems and further development unduly difficult.
Inefficient project management / lack of manpower and time resources.
Simply too many problems to correct
Difficulties posed by the UI to play-testing and development
JMM, I know how difficult all this stuff is to produce, so don't think for a minute that I do not appreciate it or fully and sincerely sympathise with you. My main concerns are that once you start taking money, the game has to work (better than this); the previous project planning and openness to the right kind of additional help have been questionable and just when will this game work properly(?)...
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In my opinion its just the wrong time to question HW in such a harsh way.
There is announced a patch soon. Also an upgrade should be upcoming not too far in the future. JMM spoke about huge improvements of the AI and engine. Interesting features were promised too, especially a new UI.
I think it would be appropriate to check these soon expected features first, before talking about a dead project.
Then we ll see if there is a promissing progress and a perspective to get what we all want. I dont think everything will be perfect after the next measurements, but it is a much better base for judgements. Maybe the new features cause even more problems. I just dont know.
So give it one more chance. Why not wait a couple of days or a few weeks, before speculating about death and hopelessness. I mean its simply not necessairy cause of the timing. And I dont say that i basically cannot comprehend the scepticism after all the time.
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Been waiting a long time already for promised features/patches.
The fact that this new version seem to be heading the same way as the original is a concern that we may never see the game we all hoped for.
Deadline after deadline seems to pass with little information and when patches are announced but never materialise then it is understandable for people to become sceptical.
I really hope that this game will fulfil its potential but as the days turn to weeks then months my support and hopes starts to disappear as they did with LG. I'm thinking that there is too much broken that as one bug gets squashed it makes others appear. I am not a programmer so I do have total admiration for JMM for undertaking such a venture, (Undertaking may be appropriate). I hope I am so so wrong on my assumption.
As the OP said, bought twice, cannot play once. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
It is pretty to look at though.
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Been waiting a long time already for promised features/patches.
Deadline after deadline seems to pass with little information and when patches are announced but never materialise then it is understandable for people to become sceptical.
Long time? Well, thats kinda relative. The features "New UI" and "Brigade/Division" are delayed since 3 months. The newest patch is delayed since 10 days.
As stated before, I also have my doubts and hopes. But talking something to death right before big improvements are announced/promised just isnt a perfect timing.
Dont get me wrong. I agree with everyone becoming more and more sceptical and criticizing things. I d also prefer hard facts instead of silky wishes. But I wouldnt give it up yet.
Why not judge in a couple of weeks. Me myself personally give it even more time.
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Hi guys,
I have been following Histwar since 2006. I have been dreaming about the finished version since, and I was confident enough of the potential that i joined in the development of the game last year, working on the new GUI.
I understand the frustration you experience and I understand the skepticism. Some of you might know programming and know what a Herculean task it is to have an AI manage a whole army with an expectation that it would manage it as well as you would have managed it.
The total war team tried to emulate a little what Histwar does. If any of you were reading what was intended with Rome II, you will remember that they wanted to keep the number of units at 20 but make each unit have multiple sub-units, somewhat like the regiment-battalion structure in Histwar and have the AI manage it and this was abandoned in favor of 40 units all managed by the player himself.
I understand their decision, i would have probably done the same. Expecting the AI to manage a whole army just like a player would is extremely difficult.
Believe me, this game would have been complete and bug free a long time ago if the decision was made to let the player manage manually his whole army, but that is not the spirit the game was designed with.
People don't complain about a total war battle even though the enemy AI is horrible because they manage their own army manually and so do not get frustrated by an AI not doing what they expected.
There are bugs, they are being fixed, there are now less of them. The GUI is being redone along the lines of GUIs used by more popular games, so hopefully that issue will be solved...
The game is not dead, it is progressing, not at the pace you would like, i understand and i apologize for that.
VC
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I have been following Histwar since... 2002 ... 12 years(omg, i'm so old :mrgreen:).
I understand how hard it is to work on a so ambitious project with a so tiny team.
The few shortcomings of Histwar prevents the game from becoming the best napoleonic wargame ever made in the video game history. Thats' so frustrating.
I have not bough the game cause of these shortcoming and bugs, but i hope to buy the new version when the 1/1 scale will be implemented.
There is nothing i can say about the the work provided on the game cause i know JM and his team are doing their best... except hiring more developers (but would require more money, of course :roll:).
However, there is an area which would need improvement : communication.
I'm not talking about the forum where JM himself talks with its community.
I'm talking about attracting players who don't know the game and keeping the community active.
1/ News once a week or at least every 2 weeks would be great. WIP, Q&A, screenshots, videos, historical articles, informations, everything that show the developers are active and would call the community and non-histwar players attention.
The last official news is from Februray!!! Most of the new comers will stop at the website page and will not search through the forum.
And make a blog please. The present blog is french written and inactive since march.
2/ Make things clearer. Histwar : LG, Histwar : Austerlitz, Histwar : Napoleon. Histwar II ? Oh, it's Hiswar : N. For new comers or someone following the game time to time, it's quite easy to get lost.
Same fo the patches. 03b, 05f/c, RC1, RC2 or wathever, it's a mess. There should have only 1 version to dl, easy to find at first glance within 3 seconds on the main page of the website.
Yes it would ask more work, but communicatiion is as important as development, 3d models, programming, etc...
I hope i do not sound too harsh. It's just the feeling from a old follower who was amazed by the Histwar : N preview video made by Levitah40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INziGCbSBdM
Can't wait for the new improvments and the 1/1 scale.
Cheers
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Thank you a lot for your constant support... twelve years... Bravo !!!
It seems the last version checked by the beta test team is very fine.. the best of all the previous version.
I have yet to fix an important issue about the locking of Corps... No sure it is very difficult...
New buildings will be included in the next Relase.
Communication : right... but it is difficult to communicate with a game with some bugs.
A lot of gamers think there a lot of bugs in the game... I don't believe... I think there are yet some (3, 4???) bugs which are in the main loop, giving the feeling the game is buggy a lot...
New patch ASAP...
JMM
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Ty for your kind answer JM.
I'm glad to hear about these good news and hope you will easily defat this nasty bug. :twisted:
About communication, there is always something to say or to show despite the few bugs. :roll:
Why not the next news about the Histwar schedule, on the website or the blog (sounds more logical) ? About what you are currently working on or solving, the incoming improvements and projects at short/medium/long term.
Of course you are very busy and certainly do not have the time to do this kind of work. I guess someone (or several persons) dedicated to the Histwar communication would be the best solution and would unburden you or your team from this burden.
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This time ill LG get a patch as well like N ?
Some like me ill not get N until we see a proper working bug free LG as we paid for that game !?
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LG and N share some inner engine, so i think there should be a new patch for LG just after the new patch for N.
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I've been following the game since 2003.
Not played for a long time now, I'm waiting for the new unit graphics.
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Gentlemen,
I am new having purchased HW:LG Sept 23, 2014. I had problems getting a Full screen graphics. Now this has been solved. However, I have read the above posts from SIMON and others which in essence state that the development of this game has been going on for years, and in their opinion they feel there are yet too many problems, so they have stopped playing it. Now my version of HW:LG includes the patch #03n. DOES THIS SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS mentioned in the above posts such as AI upgrade and new UI? These posts were in June, 2014 only 3 months ago.
I ask this question because as a beginner it will take me many hours of reading and experimenting in order to learn how to play the game. I DO NOT want to spend all these hours, if in the end I am going to deal with a game that is not functioning properly.
I think this is a fair question. If the answer is no, and Simon etc., are still correct, then I was duped into spending my money on software that should not be on the market as a FINISHED product. On the other hand, if all the major problems are in the past, and have been solved since June, 2014, then I will make the effort to learn how to play the game.
I hope I get an honest answer.
Warren R Perez
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Gentlemen,
I am new having purchased HW:LG Sept 23, 2014. I had problems getting a Full screen graphics. Now this has been solved. However, I have read the above posts from SIMON and others which in essence state that the development of this game has been going on for years, and in their opinion they feel there are yet too many problems, so they have stopped playing it. Now my version of HW:LG includes the patch #03n. DOES THIS SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS mentioned in the above posts such as AI upgrade and new UI? These posts were in June, 2014 only 3 months ago.
I ask this question because as a beginner it will take me many hours of reading and experimenting in order to learn how to play the game. I DO NOT want to spend all these hours, if in the end I am going to deal with a game that is not functioning properly.
I think this is a fair question. If the answer is no, and Simon etc., are still correct, then I was duped into spending my money on software that should not be on the market as a FINISHED product. On the other hand, if all the major problems are in the past, and have been solved since June, 2014, then I will make the effort to learn how to play the game.
I hope I get an honest answer.
Warren R Perez
Thing is that there is a controversy.
There were bugs and bad behaviours of the AI and there were phenomenas that probably were NOT an issue, but people who didnt understand the game mechanics propperly, thought those were issues.
For exemple, an unit executes a movement which appeared to be extremely worthless or even suicidal to the player. But finally the whole thing is a matter of the point of view. As user you have an excellent overview over the battlefield. From the perspective of the certain regiment-commander, who might be situated in a depressed area or a wood, only very limited information is available. So there always are situations which brings the CiC in anger due the "incompetent" subordinates. Furthermore most of the battles wont happen in an appropriate order which allows absolute control and planning. Usually the battles will lead more or less in chaos - sometimes a complete mess.
But since this is a simulation with the aspiration to facilitate the feeling of napolenonic realism, it is exactly what the game longs for.
Pressing f5 while putting the cursor on a certain unit brings you nearly in POV of its commander.
I personally didnt practice the new versions enough to judge about the current state.
I dont think, that all problems could be resolved in a short term context. Simply cos it might be the only strategic battle simulation in this world that provides several levels of AI operating independently and cos there are coming new features to be implemented like 2 more levels of AI and new 3D-models and battle-animations. In my opininion it is simply not possible to perform such complex activities accurately in the very first instant. Not the biggest programmers community of the industry is able to do so, as we frequently learn according every release of all kind of new games.
All in all the tactical AI is very much advanced and allows to perform nice battles. The strategic AI of the computer opponent also lately wasnt a full-valued competitor, cos it wasnt able to adjust operations in the endgame propperly. But for practicing it is fine. Anyway the target is to master an army against human opponents.
Actually I didnt think that the new UI is provided for LG too. I thought it was for HW: N only, but I am not absolutely sure.
I dont really see a quantity of major problems like they were described in single postings. The issues I notice usually dont impact the outcome of a whole battle essentially. But nevertheless they have to be extinguished successivley and these are details the developers permanentely work on in-between.
Thing is, new features or certain improvement can cause new issues, but there is nothing to avoid this, as we all are only humans.
My advice is: try it out yourself. Make your own experience and get as much information as you can to finally judge for yourself. It is a matter of affinity, of personal taste.
I dont think that it can be a waste of time, because there are so many great different things not seen before to examine. The positive aspects overlap the negative by far.
Everybody, including me, who hopes for a very high grade of accurate game-performance mostly in detail, has to wait. There is no other way! Thats the legitimacy of evolution.
BTW you dont really have to perceive the learning curve as a science. The delegation system makes it rather easy to start. Learning to issue single orders is pretty much easy too. The worst thing that can happen is loosing a battle.
The advanced tasks like giving complex well coordinated and timed orders to several corps taking the terrain, weather, abilities of units and leaders into account, primarily is a matter of game experience anyway.
Finally its a matter of enjoyment. If you have fun and see the potential and believe in the game´s evolution, its your thing. Otherwise leave it, and check it again after a while, if you can.
I use to buy stocks which I believe are a good investment. Everytime I do this when I see good reasons for them to succeed. Not all of them lead to the desired result. I can only evaluate the chances from my point of view in a certain moment according the available information.
As long as I benefit in a sufficient amount of cases it is a rewarding strategy. If I dont see that an investment promises the desired chance to become a success, I have to keep an eye on it and rate it again when time passes and criteria change.
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Gentlemen,
I am new having purchased HW:LG Sept 23, 2014. I had problems getting a Full screen graphics. Now this has been solved. However, I have read the above posts from SIMON and others which in essence state that the development of this game has been going on for years, and in their opinion they feel there are yet too many problems, so they have stopped playing it. Now my version of HW:LG includes the patch #03n. DOES THIS SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS mentioned in the above posts such as AI upgrade and new UI? These posts were in June, 2014 only 3 months ago.
I ask this question because as a beginner it will take me many hours of reading and experimenting in order to learn how to play the game. I DO NOT want to spend all these hours, if in the end I am going to deal with a game that is not functioning properly.
I think this is a fair question. If the answer is no, and Simon etc., are still correct, then I was duped into spending my money on software that should not be on the market as a FINISHED product. On the other hand, if all the major problems are in the past, and have been solved since June, 2014, then I will make the effort to learn how to play the game.
I hope I get an honest answer.
Warren R Perez
Hello, Warren!
I purchased HWLG back in 2011. I purchased HWN when it was released last November (2013). At the time, HWN had several game play bugs that did affect the outcome of battles...things like artillery batteries mysteriously moving from one part of the map to the other...almost invincible cavalry regiments...then cavalry regiments that would NEVER charge an undefended artillery position, etc. But these bugs, as I can see, have largely been fixed both in HWN and with the newer patches to HWLG. In my opinion, both games work well enough AS IS to justify the cost.
BUT...
I only have this opinion because (and this is really the main point of the whole controversy, as I see it)...my DESIRE for a realistic Napoleonics game AND my EXPECTATIONS as to what that should look like meet very well in Histwar Napoleon/Les Grognards. In other words, if someone is looking for a really big version of Napoleon Total War, then one will be disappointed with HW (now, and in the future when all the promised features are delivered). Why? Because HW never has, and never will, aspire to be NTW. And I, for one, am very grateful for this! NTW is an arcade game...there is very little in the game that is historical at all when it comes to Napoleonic warfare. I have been studying the subject in depth for years, I have downloaded and played all the major mods for NTW (many, quite good) and NONE of them even come close to simulating a Napoleonic battlefield, simply because Creative Assembly was never trying to do so, and no amount of modding can really make up for this. But, if a casual arcade player who likes NTW comes to HW with the expectations that they are purchasing just a larger version of the former, and hoping this is the case, then they will be disappointed...BUT NOT BECAUSE Histwar has failed, but because they have judged a product by their own expectations, not by the standards set out by the creators. As Sandman said above, Histwar requires that time be put into understanding it. NTW does not. Histwar requires a person to learn what Napoleonic warfare was all about, learn how it was conducted and why certain things would go wrong on a battlefield, and what made certain things go right, and why smaller forces could sometimes win over larger ones, etc, BEFORE properly judging the game's merits. NTW requires none of this. (I continue to use NTW as a measure of comparison because it, and Histwar, are currently the best 3D Napoleonic games out there).
Now, having said all of this, I will admit (as will the creators) that promised features have been long in coming, and most still have not come. But this, as is one's complete evaluation of the game, is also a matter of expectations. Honestly, when the time table was thrown out for new features last year, I took it all with a REALLY big grain of salt...believing that the features would ultimately be added, but also believing that they would take forever to be added, as has been the case. But I bought the new version anyway. Why? Because I wanted the improved graphics to a game I already loved as it was because there truly is no better historically rooted 3D Napoleonics game out there. And I bought it because I highly esteem JMM who is working with a few other creators and not a multi-million dollar development company to design a game that has been beating all others in the realm of historical realism. AND, because I'm a history buff. I don't like wasting time and money playing games that may be beautiful but leave an empty feeling after you're done because you know it did not resemble early 19th century warfare much at all.
In summary, there are fair ways to evaluate HW, and unfair ways. It is NOT okay to judge it by one's own standards that have little to do with what the game was supposed to be in the first place (I see posters to this forum doing this all the time, honestly...NOT that I am implying that you are, necessarily). And then there are fair ways to evaluate HW, namely, according to the stated goals and standards set out by the creators. In my opinion, if the game(s) are evaluated in this way, then there is obviously still more to do...but also still a lot to enjoy while we wait.
Thanks!
MJ
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Sandman,
Thank you for your comments. My overall evaluation of your remarks is that the game is still evolving because it is complex, and as such it requires time to get it right.
However, most of the game works well, so why not give it a try.
Sandman, I have done extensive reading on the internet regarding this game. Something I should have done before I purchased it. What I conclude is that this game has been under development for numerous years. That there was a break from --------- and JMM etc., went on their own. That most of the "development" is done by one man, JMM. That financing seems to be a problem because of the lack of a sufficient player base. That the development process continues.
Sandman, in the final analysis, this is basically a game. I know that many software when first sold has some bugs. These are corrected and you have a finished product.
However, the process does not take years. I am into flight simulation, and there are hundreds of aircraft, scenery and related product software. Many times when a product is first launched on the market there are bugs. A patch or two are issued, the bugs corrected, and you have a finished product. On the other hand some products cannot be fixed, and these do not sell well.
I just received an e-mail from a former player (in France) who told me he stop playing the game, but keeps reading the forum in the hope that someday the project will be completed.
I just cannot devote the time to learn such a complex game, and then have to deal with a product that is still evolving. Sorry.
Warren R Perez
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MJ,
I understand your remarks. I am almost 80 years of age. I served in the 9th Infantry Division of the US Army in Germany as occupation force after WWII. Our area of concentration was in the Ulm, Neu Ulm area, and then near the Czech border. I became interested in Napoleonic times since at the time the US Army took its unit structure from the Napolenic armies. That is platoon, company, battalion, regiment, division, corps and army. I done much reading regading Napoleonic times and warfare.
In fact I was just re-reading parts of David Chandler's "THE CAMPAIGNS OF NAPOLEON" where he writes in detail about Napoleon's philosophy of war and his strategic and battle methods. Mr Chandler was a military historian, and senior lecturer at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in the UK.
I am not therefore totally unfamiliar with warfare as carried out in Napoleonic times. I am not looking for an arcade game where the one that kills the most of the other side wins without regards to the tactics of the time etc. My point is that I am looking for a finished product, or close to it. I do not want to deal with a "work in progress" simply because it has a goal which, when achieved, will emulate closely the military of the Napoleonic times.
Warren R Perez
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Answer to the question : No, not dead.
MarshalJean : Loads of good comments, I have to agree with them.
Warren R Perez : I believe this game is closer to "finished" than many people (perhaps you ???) appreciate.
General comment : I still think too many people are expecting too much from the AI if fighting battles "solo".......if not wanting to "fight" real people in MP format, then for me, the ONLY way to play is as solo "both sides"......this allows the player to set up situations, and give sensible orders that each side might have given in that position - and then see what happens !!!.
My biggest complaint is nothing to do with the game, only that JMM has not got the time, money, or large enough customer base to make HW|N a TRUE MP game, by having some kind of central HW server.
The game (except for a few little bugs) is exceptional, and better than the best of any other Nap game available - in my opinion.
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Sandman,
Thank you for your comments. My overall evaluation of your remarks is that the game is still evolving because it is complex, and as such it requires time to get it right.
However, most of the game works well, so why not give it a try.
Sandman, I have done extensive reading on the internet regarding this game. Something I should have done before I purchased it. What I conclude is that this game has been under development for numerous years. That there was a break from --------- and JMM etc., went on their own. That most of the "development" is done by one man, JMM. That financing seems to be a problem because of the lack of a sufficient player base. That the development process continues.
Sandman, in the final analysis, this is basically a game. I know that many software when first sold has some bugs. These are corrected and you have a finished product.
However, the process does not take years. I am into flight simulation, and there are hundreds of aircraft, scenery and related product software. Many times when a product is first launched on the market there are bugs. A patch or two are issued, the bugs corrected, and you have a finished product. On the other hand some products cannot be fixed, and these do not sell well.
I just received an e-mail from a former player (in France) who told me he stop playing the game, but keeps reading the forum in the hope that someday the project will be completed.
I just cannot devote the time to learn such a complex game, and then have to deal with a product that is still evolving. Sorry.
Warren R Perez
I am glad, that I could be conducive to make your choice!
The best of luck for yourself and for finding an entertaining product that complies with your personal standards.
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Actually Warren you have bought HW probably when it is now to all intents and purposes playing at its very best, especially regarding ai.
HWLG which you have has only been recently updated to the mechanics of HWN, there have been times in the past when the game was for some, especially beta testers, lets say, not enjoyable. The trouble is with something of this complexity one subtle change here or there can then cause major problems else where, and much of the problem along the road was because some kept to a version that they found to be good and then did not test the beta. I think somewhere down the line communication was lost and JMM assumed everything was ok, and made some changes that were not enjoyable, but over the last few months big headway has been made in correcting these until we now have probably a HW which plays better than ever imo.
I do not want to deal with a "work in progress" simply because it has a goal which, when achieved, will emulate closely the military of the Napoleonic times.
I can understand this comment in a way, but some of the changes that a coming along are now the icing on the cake, and there is nothing wrong in making a good thing better...
I have like many followed this game for years, and have now been playing on and off for over 4 years, and all I can say to you is that no other game has intrigued me more than this. I am constantly still amazed at what has been implemented in this game. I bought the manual separately and that is a masterpiece in its own right, reproduced in excellent English, and has provided me with hours of entertainment on its own. Like I say I am still learning. There is no other game that I have stuck with for this long, yes there has been some ups and downs, but this game is a Napoleonic Battlefield God!
You compare your flight sims to this, but take a look at the credits and see how many people are involved in building these games, then compare that with the HW team.
What we need now, is some screenshots of the up and coming graphical changes, this wets peoples appetite more than anything, news and a comprehensive list of updates as ai changes are made... But this takes time, which in hindsight would be better spent improving the game. I for one hope the changes keep coming, campaign maps, extra theatres of Napoleonic wars, add on's etc, etc.
I will wait for as long as it takes, there isn't now, and I doubt whether there ever will be anything to compare...
Where else could you get scale like this?
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NBC,
Thank you. I understand your comments as to the progress of HistWar over these many years. I will go to the sidelines, and keep looing in from time to time
to see what progress has transpired in the future. In the meantime I shall keep the game in Limbo.
Thank you for all your help to my many questions.
Warren R Perez
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I'm very relieved to read this thread. For a long time, I've considered the problems I have with HLG and often wondered if maybe it was just me. I see at last that I'm not alone in my dissatisfaction, nor my reluctance to spend more money on what is effectively the same game, and yet, paradoxically, my hope that it will actually reach its potential. It's certainly good to see that the response to criticism is no longer just to shout it down and condemn the heretics.
I've played the demo of HW:N and stuck with it for longer than I was able to with HLG. The landscape is gorgeous...just gorgeous (with the unfortunate exception of built-up areas), like a painting almost, and the 1:1 and 1:2 representations are pretty impressive. But here's a thing: HLG was always supposed to be about more than just the eye candy, yet when I look at the differences between HW:N and HLG, that's really what I see - apart from the necessary improvements to the UI, which is indeed a lot better. Even so, I still would have preferred to see improvements to the game itself rather than the interface. The old one was pretty bad, but you could work with it. Unlike say, Matrix Games' Campaigns on the Danube. You won't find any bugs in that game because the UI does its utmost to make sure you never even get a game started! Seriously.
So, well done to JMM for the beautiful maps (I also like the "table" look around the edges), and well done for the improved UI, but I won't consider this game ready for prime time until it has the following:
1. The ability to start Marengo with the French actually holding the line of the Fontanone, the ability to start Borodino with the Russians already in possession of the Grand Redoubt and the Bagration Fleches etc...you get the idea. The ability for a scenario designer to schedule reinforcements to arrive anywhere on the map.
2. Division and brigade AI with with divisional and brigade generals displayed and/or the ability for the player to manually control divisions/brigades. A stupid AI can be worse than no AI.
3. Artillery batteries can no longer knock each other out at extreme range in the space of a few minutes.
4. What you see in 3D is actually what's happening in the game engine.
5. Units behave in a plausible way e.g. infantry marching at 90 degrees to an enemy line within musket range (self-enfilading!) .
6. A more usable (i.e. zoom-able) 2D view. Alright, that's a nice-to-have, assuming the 3D issues are sorted out.
The Histwar development team may be a small operation, but the product isn't priced as such. HW:N is a pretty expensive game, weighing in at nearly €50 for the most basic version. A customer is entitled to expect something worthwhile for this. I read a suggestion in another thread that retrofitting improvements to HLG should be discontinued in order to concentrate on fixing HW:N. I can certainly see the logic of this line of reasoning, but it ignores the fact that many people who paid for HLG still don't own a playable game, and not because they really wanted a "BIG NTW" (can we please put this canard to bed once and for all?), so effectively saying to them "buy the game again to get the fixes" just wouldn't cut it. What might be worth considering would be to allow HLG owners to buy HW:M at a heavy discount, and then forget about all further development of HLG and, in the spirit of military common sense, reinforce success rather than failure. I must confess to having an interest here as one of the things that puts me off buying HW:N (apart from the fear of buying another dog with the same bunch of fleas) is the price. As a HLG owner, I might pay up to...hmm....let's say €25.00 for HW:N in its current state. A bit cheeky, you might think, but for Histwar, it represents a choice between getting €25.00 of my money, or none of my money.
The Napoleon's Battles miniatures rules set (originally by Avalon Hill) is due to be re-released very soon now, and to be honest, that is more exciting to me than claims about what HW:N will provide, and at the moment, it looks like that where my money will be going. Believe it or not, NB gives me a more satisfactory Napoleonic grand-tactical game than HLG, even though I have to do the engine-work myself. I take no pleasure in this state of affairs. I've always wanted Histwar to succeed ever since it was first announced on ---------, where I read the description and saw that this was the Napoleonic game I'd always wanted. It still has the potential to be that. I think. But that doesn't mean I'm going to don blinkers and pretend it's something it isn't.
Finally, a word about the HW:N demo. I know I've made this point already, elsewhere, but really. I have a spreadsheet of about 90 Napoleonic battles suitable for games with the brigade or regiment as the basic manoeuvre unit, such as Napoleons' Battles or Age of Eagles. 90+ battles to choose from. Why does the HW:N demo not depict a historical engagement - with the units in their historical start positions? At least meet the gamer halfway by giving him something that will allow him to make some meaningful comparisons. Bagowhatto? Seriously? Wouldn't it be much better to provide something medium sized like, for example (considering the French v Russians/Austrians limitation), Gorodetschna, Sacile or Heilsberg?
Ultimately, I don't suppose any of what I've typed above will make any difference. It never has before. I guess every so often I just need to get my HLG frustrations off my chest. It's like therapy... :D
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The basic disagreement still stands. Those who still play the game are not blind to what has been promised, we just find enjoyment enough with the game as it is to be content with waiting. Those who bought the game and don't still play it do so for a variety of reasons. Obviously, whatever reasons they may be, they add up to not finding the current state of the game enjoyable enough to give it their time. I'm not sure any other reasons given by either side are really needed. An agreement to disagree is fine with me. :D
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I bought the game about 6 months ago and I am very happy with it - I have more that got my monies worth. I would have no trouble recommending it..
a) Yes there are some bugs BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THEY EFFECT THE RESULT OF ANY BATTLE
b) Graphics I recently Played Total War Medieval 2 and actually the landscape in Histwar is better
c) As said before you can not compare Total war with Histwar - If you want an arcade game which is not a realistic simulation of commanding a Napoleonic army Then that is your game. Even with any bugs that affect individual units Histwar IS FAR MORE AN ACCURATE PORTRAYAL OF COMMANDING A NAPOLEONIC ARMY, Can anyone tell me of a more realistic game Because I will buy it.
d) I have just recommended it to an historian who has written several books on the period - Hopefully he will buy it and gets time to give it a bash - If he does I will post his feedback.
I am a big supporter of the game as you can tell from the above - But I think players should look at the overall picture and not the bugs that really do not materially affect the outcome of any battle. This is a simulation of the difficulties of commanding a napoleonic army and the problems of committing or maintaining reserves at decisive moments and at decisive areas of the battlefield with realistic delays in communicating orders. Which can lead to a very satisfying conclusion when you get it right !!! It does it well enough for you to properly understand what a brilliant commander Napoleon really was (when the game is played at advanced level)
I can not think of any other game that comes close to doing this
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An agreement to disagree is fine with me.
I think this is probably the best way to move forward with some of the arguments in this section...
Having said that, this is probably one of the very few games where 100,000 troops can fight 60,000 troops and you can still fight an enjoyable battle and get a reasonably balanced result at the end of it, providing you manage your troops in a historical way...
This is one of the very few periods of history where the opposing forces were evenly balanced and nobody had weapons superior to anyone else. This was a period of warfare where battles were won by the quality of the commanders and not necessarily the quality of the troops, after all a Napoleonic infantryman, was pretty much the same whatever nation he fought for, as were the cavalry and artillery.
This is a great game that unfortunately does not get the recognition it deserves. One day perhaps.