HistWar

HistWar (English zone) => General discussions => Discussion démarrée par: AJ le 11 octobre 2010, 16:08:35 pm

Titre: Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: AJ le 11 octobre 2010, 16:08:35 pm
I often browse the French forum using a translator.  This morning I came across a very interesting Thread, involving JMM, Darsh and others, on Cavalry behavior.
It appears that when Cav encounters Inf in square, it stands by the Square (we have often seen this) and displays "Attack on Unit", yet seems to do nothing. Apparently the Cav is calling for Artillery support and stays there waiting for it.  Some micromanagement is needed here, try giving a "Support Order" to a Horse Arty unit, or give an "Attack Order" on the square, to any Arty unit.  The Cav is waiting for the Square to rout from Arty fire and then to attack the routers.  The same effect may work by attacking the Square with an Inf unit but I don't know for sure.   :idea: 8)
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Gunner24 le 11 octobre 2010, 16:58:38 pm
Citer
Apparently the Cav is calling for Artillery support and stays there waiting for it
Makes sense to me, how long to wait I wonder, before it moves off and does something else ?.
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: AJ le 11 octobre 2010, 17:31:13 pm
Citer
Makes sense to me, how long to wait I wonder, before it moves off and does something else ?.


I'm not quite sure, the Cav may rout if it's under fire or has high Fatigue/low Moral. If that doesn't apply, they may stay until the Square routs from Arty fire or Inf attack or even it's own Moral/Fatigue problems. I have seen Cav stay there for an hour or more.
 
 
 
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: JMM le 11 octobre 2010, 18:33:42 pm
Hi...

I think you can try some exercises to understand the units behaviours...
Just build two armies with some INF, CAV and ART...
Play the battle in mode Player vs Player to control the 2 sides...

For example, put an INF unit around 3000 meters in front of a CAV unit of same side.
Attack this INF with a CAV after puting an ART unit around 1500 meters behind CAV unit...

Second example : same exercice but only 1000 meters between the INF and CAV unit.

There are a lot of exercices with some units in order to understand the support of units.
I'll try to write a list of reactions...

JMM
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Gunner24 le 11 octobre 2010, 19:24:05 pm
I have seen this happen many times, it is easier to see when the forces are small, when you get lots of units (and they are engaged)  these behaviours are harder to see and understand, because there is so much going on.
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: AJ le 11 octobre 2010, 20:23:20 pm
Thanks JMM, I will try these tests. In HLG there is always something new to learn ;)
Titre: Re : Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: JCM101 le 13 octobre 2010, 12:29:31 pm
Hi...

I think you can try some exercises to understand the units behaviours...
Just build two armies with some INF, CAV and ART...
Play the battle in mode Player vs Player to control the 2 sides...

For example, put an INF unit around 3000 meters in front of a CAV unit of same side.
Attack this INF with a CAV after puting an ART unit around 1500 meters behind CAV unit...

Second example : same exercice but only 1000 meters between the INF and CAV unit.

There are a lot of exercices with some units in order to understand the support of units.
I'll try to write a list of reactions...

JMM


These exercises would be excellent for building into the Tutorial section of the game.  Whilst relatively easy to create for the initiated, I think it would be a great help for complete novices to have some simple scenarios of this type ready-made.
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Darsh le 13 octobre 2010, 20:03:47 pm
My point was to reproduce the hand-to hand between the cavalery and infantery like to force a cavalery charge on a square (remember Waterloo?) or coordonate a attack with multiple cavalry units like Eylau because I find the use of cavalery a bit too restrictive.
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Hook le 13 octobre 2010, 20:52:52 pm
My point was to reproduce the hand-to hand between the cavalery and infantery like to force a cavalery charge on a square (remember Waterloo?) or coordonate a attack with multiple cavalry units like Eylau because I find the use of cavalery a bit too restrictive.

Cavalry moving to just out of musket range of a square ARE charging the square.  If the square doesn't break, then there's nothing more for the cavalry to do.  If the presence of the cavalry isn't enough to break the square, then you're out of luck.  In any game that properly models cavalry versus square combat and lets you charge home, you quickly find out that it's a fast way to lose your cavalry with no effect on the infantry.  At Waterloo, cavalry flowed around the squares, but had little luck breaking them.

Imagine being a cavalryman sitting on a horse with your saber.  Your horse will not charge the bayonets of the infantry, so you decide to try to do a close attack with your saber.  Because your horse takes up a lot of ground and infantrymen don't take nearly as much, you'll be facing several bayonets by yourself.  Bayonets have a longer reach than your saber.  Not to mention that your horse is an inviting bayonet target, and if you lose him you'll be going back to your lines on foot, something no cavalryman wanted to do.

This is why cavalry carried pistols or carbines.  Not that the range of a pistol is much farther than that of a saber.

Lancers might have a better chance, but the lance is a heavy weapon and bayonets are much lighter and more agile making it easy enough to parry lance thrusts. 

Hook
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: thilio le 13 octobre 2010, 21:15:57 pm
Cavalry moving to just out of musket range of a square ARE charging the square.  If the square doesn't break, then there's nothing more for the cavalry to do.  If the presence of the cavalry isn't enough to break the square, then you're out of luck.  In any game that properly models cavalry versus square combat and lets you charge home, you quickly find out that it's a fast way to lose your cavalry with no effect on the infantry.  At Waterloo, cavalry flowed around the squares, but had little luck breaking them.

Cavalry vs square was only one part of the discussion.
The topic on the French forum was also about the cavalry behavior against infantery whatever its formation (including column or line). Actually, there is a lack of direct fighting (charge) of a cav unit vs a non fleeing inf unit in HW.
Darsh and I suggest it was relatively frequent whereas JMM think it was rather rare because most of the time inf had the time to form square. This last way is what seems to be modeled in HW and JMM is rather reluctant to change it.
So, another question was about the frequency of the fights between cav and line or column inf in the historic battles.
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Gunner24 le 13 octobre 2010, 22:57:06 pm
Citer
Actually, there is a lack of direct fighting (charge) of a cav unit vs a non fleeing inf unit in HW.
I agree, but this is much as I would expect.  In many paintings of the time massive Cavalry formations are painted charging about the battlefield but other than when the enemy breaks, what can they do ?.  Horse's don't like charging at walls of sharpe objects.  Having said all that, I would like to see a few more "surprise" attacks here and there in HW, when Cav do charge home with more than a few squadrons attacking artillery batteries.

Citer
So, another question was about the frequency of the fights between cav and line or column inf in the historic battles.
It must have happened now and then, when the Cav caught Inf by "surprise" and before they could change formation, but from what I've read the formation changes where very fast.

Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: thilio le 13 octobre 2010, 23:08:19 pm
It must have happened now and then, when the Cav caught Inf by "surprise" and before they could change formation, but from what I've read the formation changes where very fast.

Yes but this question remains debated...Was it rather frequent or rare?
JMM requested examples and bibliograhy supporting the cav vs inf fighting.
We suggest that it is reported in several description of battles including Marengo, Eylau, Austerlitz, Waterloo.
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Soldat Louis le 13 octobre 2010, 23:52:40 pm
It seems that  in 2D, HW simulates very well the final results of inf v cav fights. In 3D it might looks a bit too static but I am sure that JMM can improve that in the future.

What seems a bit odd however is that, often, the cav units insist too much and stay for long in the fire range of the squares (and guns). It is frustrating when a cav corp or a unit is send only to "freeze" enemy movements, not to break the ennemy line. That happens even with the "diversion" order. Ultimatelly the cav units get captured or distroyed without having done so much (apparently, may be I am wrong). In many battles I have played, most of the cavalery was routed in the first hours, on both sides.

It could be nice in the future to have distincts "charge" and  "harassment" orders for Cav Units/Corps/Brigades.
In the first case the cav units would keep insisting until the squares eventually breaks down. That order will have be employed cautiously by the player, only when he feel that the opponent infantry moral is about to drop down due to several factors. If the squares hold, then the cav will pay the price...

In the "harassment" order the Cav units would attack by waves, just to keep the inf in square formation and call for arty support. They will not stay for ages (as now) in the close fire range of the squares and will keep moving to be a "not so easy" target for arty: they will have a longuer life time but in compensation less chance to cause a drop in inf moral and will never break a square, unless the inf moral is altered by artillery or infantry attacks. That would fill a gap that still exist in Histwar : the combined inf+cav attacks. I am sure that this will come once but let's be patient we already have a lot and JMM has only two arms...
Titre: Re : Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Darsh le 14 octobre 2010, 05:16:24 am
Exactly, don't forget that Cavalery in this time made a single charge and that all, they have done multiple charges to break or to harass the infantery who where in a square or not.  It's was the speciality of the heavy cavalery like the carabiniers or the cuirassiers which were used like a breaking line weapon and it's not well represented in Histwar.
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Andrea le 22 octobre 2010, 21:17:10 pm
Sirs,

I'm a HLG beginner, I'm just "exploring" the game in order to understand the mechanics of the movements
I've noticed one thing about cavalry behavior, I often find cavalry starting a charge without specific order,
so it's easy to lose the control of entire units. I'm trying to manage with "low initiative"  option, I also keep
my cavalry occupied in support action but it doesn't seem to work at 100%. I kindly ask your opinion and
advice

best regards,
Andrea 
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Hook le 22 octobre 2010, 23:24:07 pm
I'm a HLG beginner, I'm just "exploring" the game in order to understand the mechanics of the movements
I've noticed one thing about cavalry behavior, I often find cavalry starting a charge without specific order,
so it's easy to lose the control of entire units. I'm trying to manage with "low initiative"  option, I also keep
my cavalry occupied in support action but it doesn't seem to work at 100%. I kindly ask your opinion and
advice

Cavalry doing a charge are often doing so on routed enemy units, and that's what you want.  If the routed units are allowed to rally, they'll be back in the fighting.  If the cavalry catches them, the enemy unit is captured, which adds to your score and removes the enemy unit from play.  Even if your cavalry is eventually routed itself, the result is a net gain for you.

Cavalry units also attack artillery, and if it works it's a good thing.  Sometimes it doesn't work and you lose some cavalry over it.

Cavalry won't charge home on an infantry square.  They'll request artillery support.  Sometimes this works nicely.

PS.  Welcome to the game and the forum!

Hook
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: Cavalier le 24 octobre 2010, 04:55:13 am
One thing I think we should slo be aware of is that in real life it was very easy for commanders to lose control of their cavalry. Wargames nowmally give the virtual commander way more control than they would have had in real life and I feel it is one of the strengths of Les Grog that we are forced to address subordinates that not always do what we want when we want it.

As for maintaining a cavalry reserve, I have had good success by holding them well to th rear behind a terrain feature so they do not have line of sight to the enemy.
Titre: Re : Cavalry Behavior
Posté par: thilio le 24 octobre 2010, 09:22:34 am
One thing I think we should slo be aware of is that in real life it was very easy for commanders to lose control of their cavalry. Wargames nowmally give the virtual commander way more control than they would have had in real life and I feel it is one of the strengths of Les Grog that we are forced to address subordinates that not always do what we want when we want it.

I agree. This is one of the things that makes HW more realistic than other games.