HistWar
HistWar (English zone) => General discussions => Discussion démarrée par: FranzVonG le 30 novembre 2009, 20:24:35 pm
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Just a quick question: is the beta as bugged and unplayable as the demo?
I'm asking this because on every forum that I read, the reactions to HLG moved from "great! Let's wait for it" to "meh, it's terrible" after the demo release.
I will buy the game nonetheless, but JMM needs more money than mine :cry:
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I was 100% certain to buy, now not so certain, I think the demo MUST be faulty/bugged.....no way can the beta testers have missed all the stuff that's wrong, totaly impossible........if they did, heck, that's not good to even think about.
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.no way can the beta testers have missed all the stuff that's wrong, totaly impossible........if they did, heck, that's not good to even think about.
Actually, they quite easily could have. There are lots and lots of PC setups out there, and the one you have might not be one that any of the Beta Testers have. I am having problems myself (Windows 7 64-bit, latest nVidia beta drivers) so I feel your pain but it is far too simple to blame the beta testers who may simply have not see the problems you, or I, are experiencing.
Actually, that's a good thing. It means the game isn't that buggy as the Beta Testers aren't seeing these issues. It just means the game needs some tweaking for users with certain PC setups.
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So far the AI is lacking on EVERY system, this is not a system by system problem it's a code problem.
JMM has said the AI works in the full game, so I belive that.
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So far the AI is lacking on EVERY system, this is not a system by system problem it's a code problem.
JMM has said the AI works in the full game, so I belive that.
Well, it's possible I am more aware of the CTD/teleporting issues than the AI issues just because that's what is happening more to me during the limited amount of time I've played the demo. If there are AI issues as well and JMM says they aren't in the full game, I believe him too.
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I have had NO technical problems at all, the game installs and plays, no prob......but the "daft" stuff is the same for everyone.
JMM has said the AI works in the full game, so I belive that.
Has he said that though ?.....are you sure that's what he means ?.....I've been told the full game is the SAME as the demo.
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It is just a demo.
It means that it may give you a foretaste of what the game will be.
JMM said the demo encountered more « bugs » than expected, but the demo is not the game.
After so many years of work, one thing is certain, JMM would never release an unfinished game.
Patience... ;)
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JMM said the demo encountered more « bugs » than expected, but the demo is not the game
Sure, I think most people do realise that, but the "workings" of the game are in the demo, or is some important stuff (like the AI) not in the demo ?......I think the bugs comment was to do with the crash's and the map edges......but what about the basic functions of the game play - are they DIFFERENT (better) in the game ?......that's the really big question.
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So far the AI is lacking on EVERY system, this is not a system by system problem it's a code problem.
JMM has said the AI works in the full game, so I belive that.
I just had a quick game tonight - Solo mode. One of my corps had no orders and the AI controlled Austrians advanced on it. My corps with no orders immediately deployed a defensive line and dispatched a couple of cavalry units to threaten the advancing Austrians. The Austrians formed square to counter the cavalry threat, and were subsequently shredded by air-burstiing shrapnel rounds from my corps' artillery unit - all without any input from me. I'd say that was quite an effective display of AI, wouldn't you?
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Yes, it has some beillent stuff in it, but you must have read some of the other comments posted here. I don't think people are dreaming up things that are wrong, but reporting things they find in a best attempt to help show what the problems are, so that they can be fixed.
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Yes, it has some beillent stuff in it, but you must have read some of the other comments posted here. I don't think people are dreaming up things that are wrong, but reporting things they find in a best attempt to help show what the problems are, so that they can be fixed.
Absolutely agree. We need some open and honest discussion about the things that aren't working well but we need to be very careful to not make sweeping statements like "there is no AI" or "the enemy can't attack because of the completely lackluster AI" (or words to that effect) when with my own eyes I've seen something to the contrary.
I remember when I first got CM:SF I had teleporting units, CTDs and all the rest of it, just like we are seeing with HW:LG right now. I think as long as JMM is committed to fixing all these issues - for ALL users - then we will have a gem of a game in about 6 months time.
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Gunner24, I think a lot of people haven't figured out how to play the game yet, and when the game doesn't do what they expect, they have to wonder if it's a bug. I've been there myself.
We know there ARE bugs; JMM has mentioned some himself. And he's also said the AI is not finished. He made some changes recently that added some bugs. We can't blame the beta testers for that. Can't blame JMM either, it's just the nature of the software development process. So far, the bugs I've seen reported should be fairly simple fixes, although it might take some time to find out exactly where they are happening. That's normal.
I think we've got a good solid game here, and JMM has done a great job. Perhaps the demo was released a bit too soon, but I think you understand the political reasons for that. Just give it time to bake a bit longer, and it'll be great. I'm going to trust JMM to get it right.
From everything I can see, the demo IS the game with a few features disabled and the editing programs not included, and only a limited number of maps and orders of battle. If the full game had been released instead of the demo, the only difference you'd see would be more battles, multiplayer, the ability to load and continue a saved game, and the editors for the maps, orders of battle and doctrine.
I played my last battle on the 2D map and didn't see anything really wrong, except for a couple of units simply disappearing. That kind of thing won't be difficult to fix.
Keep in mind that whenever the game doesn't do what you expect, it may not be a bug but intentional behavior, like the guns moving forward of your lines so they can fire on the enemy. The game has done things I didn't expect, and didn't necessarily want, but after reflecting on it a bit I've decided it's usually within the design parameters of the game.
Some things do appear to be bugs, like units facing at right angles to a unit they're firing on, and even that might be intentional behavior, although I'd consider it wrong. For now, I'd say report it, but give it the benefit of the doubt unless it's really messed up.
I suspect the betatesters played a lot of the game on the 2D map, where a lot of problems simply don't show up. If that's the case, consider the demo to be an open beta test, and be glad you're able to be a part of it. :)
Hook
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I absolutely agree with Hook.
This Demo is the right thing to get a big Beta to see what happens on masses of PCs.
The only thing that really makes me think are the crashes. Other things seem to be graphics bugs.
Would be really helpfull if other companys would do the same tests with us before sellin a game ;)
GO JMM GO
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Are you getting crashes that aren't caused by going too close to the edge of the map? That one should be a simple fix.
I haven't had any crashes myself so far.
Also, I'd like to thank the beta team for all its hard work. I know you guys don't get thanked often enough, and I know from personal experience that it really is work, and not just play, and can sometimes be very frustrating. It can also be extremely rewarding, especially when you find something you can fix yourself and take some load off JMM, or when you can narrow down a bug to a very specific cause making finding it in the code trivial for JMM. Thanks, guys.
Hook
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I sort of feel a 'loyalty' to this game having waited so long. I must say though that much of what gunner has said is right. People are saying on other threads that the demo is different from the full game (though I havent read JMM saying that anywhere) because they have seen quite a lot of bugs. Surely this points to quite a few unsatisfied players? That said I have only read what amounts to constructed criticism, but it is still criticism.
I have played the demo a lot. There are certainly flashes of brilliance. Troops advancing. The control system is thoughtful and deep. A great amount of information all there easy to access. But...
I have watched 4000 cavalry leave the map showing 'escape' on their card after being ordered to attack some infantry without ever taking a casualty?
I have seen the enemy HQ ride agagin and again through my regiments?
I have watched 4 battalians all move into the same impossibly small space before routing?
I have seen regiments just stand and stare at other regiments without firing a shot while cavalry way behind my lines in reserve suddenly charge ahead and attack?
Regiments dissapear and get stuck in the landscape?
As I said there is a great game in there, a fantastic game. I can wait for divisions to be implemented so I can order them individually and I can put up with the terrible mucket sounds. But all the other stuff is nothing to do with how my computer is set up, its the game! If this is the finished product then I will still buy it, I owe JMM I feel for all the hard work he has put in, and I will hope that these things are put right...
I really hope it is just a buggy demo, as for patience, we have been waiting years and this game has been checked by the beta testers for some time... surely they cannot have just been watching in 2D mode??
... I really hope it is a bug infested Demo...
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I sort of feel a 'loyalty' to this game having waited so long. I must say though that much of what gunner has said is right. People are saying on other threads that the demo is different from the full game (though I havent read JMM saying that anywhere) because they have seen quite a lot of bugs. Surely this points to quite a few unsatisfied players? That said I have only read what amounts to constructed criticism, but it is still criticism.
I have played the demo a lot. There are certainly flashes of brilliance. Troops advancing. The control system is thoughtful and deep. A great amount of information all there easy to access. But...
I have watched 4000 cavalry leave the map showing 'escape' on their card after being ordered to attack some infantry without ever taking a casualty?
I have seen the enemy HQ ride agagin and again through my regiments?
I have watched 4 battalians all move into the same impossibly small space before routing?
I have seen regiments just stand and stare at other regiments without firing a shot while cavalry way behind my lines in reserve suddenly charge ahead and attack?
Regiments dissapear and get stuck in the landscape?
All these things and quite a few more have been highlighted by other players. (they are not beta testers, they are playing a demo of the real game which is meant to entice them into buying it).
As I said there is a great game in there, a fa,ntastic game. I can wait I suppose for divisions to be implemented so I can order them individually and I can put up with the terrible musket sounds. But all the other stuff is nothing to do with how my computer is set up, its the game! If this is the finished product then I will still buy it, I owe JMM I feel for all the hard work he has put in, and I will hope that these things are put right...
Some stuff I suppose I might just not fully understand yet? I just really hope it is just a buggy demo. As for patience, we have been waiting years and this game has been checked by the beta testers for some time... surely they cannot have just been watching in 2D mode??
... I really hope it is a bug infested Demo...
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I am a beta tester and have not seen any teleportations of units in the game for months, granted that i had not tested a lot in the last 2 weeks due to some personal distractions (work, family etc...)
I have not yet played the demo but it sounds like it has much more bugs than the actual game. I have not seen before units disappearing when fired upon like reported by many here.
There are still a few bugs hopefully to be sorted out pretty soon.
So patience my friends.
VC
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Gunner24, I think a lot of people haven't figured out how to play the game yet, and when the game doesn't do what they expect, they have to wonder if it's a bug. I've been there myself.
Yes, I'm sure your right, this is not an easy game, it takes more than a few goes on the tutorial to understand what's happening, but having said that there is clearly something wrong.
Some of the AI actions are too drastic, someone mention 4,000 cavalry leaving the battlefield without lose, now if that's not a BUG, it's still a fault, why would 4,000 cavalry that have not engaged in combat leave the battlefield, ok, some may say, well they did not fancy fighting so left, which may have happened in real life now and again, but do we really want that kind of feature in LG - assuming it's NOT a bug ?.
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I can't help thinking that its great corps commanders think for themselves and react to events, but I would also like to send an order and have almost every one of them carried out! This often does not seem to happen... I wait and wait but nothing. I want to know that that Corps is going to go in no matter what. As has been put somewhere earlier, if Napoleon sent a command to attack the Corps commander would not just sit there without even replying! I see red arrows of advance appearing but when I check the plan a little later they are gone?
I wonder at this point if it is in fact me - that I don't fully understand the games' order system, after all you can run out of messengers? Maybe they all got lost or captured, although there were no enemy between me and that corps. Maybe it is just an issue with the demo? Will it be like this in the finished product. I really want to like this game, and whats more quite a bit of it I do.
I am a bit confused.com :?:
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I am a bit confused.com
I think there's a few of us......this orders thing is my main concern right now.
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my main concern is units not attacking, the battles are very stataic, most of the time both sides just stand there and watch, very little actiualy happens
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Gunfreak, what exactly are you doing during a game? Are you giving orders to your side? Did you tell the game to have the AI play both sides?
Every game I've played, at least one enemy corps will advance. This provides plenty of action.
Hook
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I've seen the enemy advance several times, but some of this is again very strange, a couple of examples I've seen today in the battle :
A single enemy Infantry Regiment advances from their Coprs straight into the French defensive line, they lose some men, then they wander about NOT routing and NOT retreating while the French stand still watching them and NOT even shooting.
An enemy Cav unit looks like it's about to attack my cannons but ends up walking though them doing nothing, then turning right and stopping for some time before moving off back home.....my cavalry nearby watch but do nothing.
It's these kind of things that are worrying most people who have been looking forward to this for years, if it's the AI at fault that works correctly in the proper game then we need not worry, but..........
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An enemy Cav unit looks like it's about to attack my cannons but ends up walking though them doing nothing, then turning right and stopping for some time before moving off back home.....my cavalry nearby watch but do nothing.
I'm not sure why the infantry thing happened the way it did, but I think I can explain the cavalary/cannon one.
I've got a screen shot of some French infantry marching *through* my unlimbered artillery unit with nothing happening. It turns out that the artillery was part of a unit that was in a defensive line, and wasn't actually where it appeared in the 3D view. The replay shows it as being limbered and behind some nearby infantry.
If the enemy cavalry unit was more powerful than your nearby friendly cavalry, they wouldn't attack... they won't attack a more powerful unit. The enemy cavalry might have been just weak enough that it wouldn't attack your friendly cavalry.
Or it could be a really nasty bug for JMM to fix. I suspect some combination of that and all the above.
Hook
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If the enemy cavalry unit was more powerful than your nearby friendly cavalry, they wouldn't attack... they won't attack a more powerful unit. The enemy cavalry might have been just weak enough that it wouldn't attack your friendly cavalry.
Excellent, that makes a lot of sense, it's things like this that we are not used to.....but it could well be that neither side could commit to attack the other.
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Each beta tester is free to talk about the beta test... Gazfun, Montecuccoli, Lodi57, after V Clausewitz.
I don't want to repeat the demo is not the best, with a lot of bugs there aren't in the game. It seems this kind of message isn't received.
I can't work on the game during this week, and I can't analyse the different issues. I can understand the bad felling... and I am really sad because it's not a feast.
Wait for a new release... That's all!
JMM
PS : Thank you to Hook for his support. I suppose his job is around the software development; it's a curious job; HW:LG is around 140 000 lines of source.. each bad character is a bug...
PS : a wagamer web site are shooting myself.. nice ;)
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Don't worry JMM, I think the majority in this forum support you and with the final version, I'm sure that everybody will forget the problems with the demo. ;)
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PS : Thank you to Hook for his support. I suppose his job is around the software development; it's a curious job; HW:LG is around 140 000 lines of source.. each bad character is a bug...
JMM: I started my professional programming career in 1976, retired in 1999, and have been doing my own projects ever since. My last job was for a game company. :)
As for supporting you, you are doing the game I always wanted to do. Thanks!
Excellent, that makes a lot of sense, it's things like this that we are not used to.....but it could well be that neither side could commit to attack the other.
The hard part is, when we don't understand the game well enough, we never know if something is a bug or something we're doing wrong. Just gotta keep playing to figure it out.
Hook
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I had one hell of a battle.
I still have problems getting my units to actuly attack.
I did a two flank attack, the prussians and sweeds attacked the north against the bravarians. I orderd the prussians first then for the sweeds to link up an hour later. What happend was that the prussians started on their movie, but spent 3 hours doing nothing, just standing in the middle of the battlefield, the only thing they did was to spend EVERY SINGLE cavalry regiment on stand alone charges. After 4 hours a single unit of prussians attacked the bravarian line, naturaly getting shot to peices. The rest of the prussians just stood in the middle of the field far away, after some time they started sending 1 and 1 unit at the enemy with the same resaults, only after 7 ours did they try and acrodinated attack, but by this time they only had 2 units left.
The same happed with the sweeds, they did do a little more damige but still the enemy line had little trouble
On the southern flank
I sent the 20 000 austrians agasint the polish and french, the austirans to sent only a few units at the time ,spending most of it's time with in canister range of the enemy guns getting shot to hell.
I then though EVERYTHING I got at the flank, all my russian corps.
There was very little actualy fighting, but some how my units ran, againt they spent all their cav on nothing,
Finnaly I tok the village on the southern flank, but that was only with 1 units.
When the battle was done, I had only 20 000 left out of 83 000, and not a SINGLE cavalry unit left,
I have no ide why I lost all those soldiers as very little fighting actualy happend, I only saw 5 actual fights, and they were all single unit vs unit thing, there was never any cordinated attack on either side.
But some how lots of soldiers died, 7000 on my side and 6000 on french, pluss 15 000 wounded on both sides.
Something like 33 000 ran away on my side, while 23 000 french ran.
It was a very non battle, I never felt the corps actualy did what it was supose to do. No cordination on either side.
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This was only ment to show how the ai works in the demo for me, not critesism
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Beta test started a long time ago (....Once upon a beta..... :mrgreen:) we started with one little map and some infantry units... i was so excited at the first install that seeing just some infantry and one map i told myself this kind of beta testing will be different from others (i made tests for some other Napoleonic games from Matrix).
All the team started just marching the infantry trying every (quite annoying but needed) "promenade" near lakes, forests, woods... bridges...ice (i remember a unit refusing walking on ice... that was not a shy unit...that was a bug)... every movement was tested many times by me and y other testers.
JMM was there to reproduce every bug we posted and fixed every bug reported...
This, shortly, was the first regimental part of the AI.
Then came some cavalry and artillery and regimental guns... to control squares, volley fire, bombardament... everything again without the AI just to let us select every unit and FORCE moves to FORCE situations... this i and others did sooo many times i am glad HWLG is not a cumbersome beast for my pc.
Next step was Corp AI and the Editors... Support Order gave us some problems as infantry attacks or even some regimental guns not in the ideal position.
The different work in this beta testing is that we testers just see grow the Engine day by day, is not a beta test with a given product quite done for the release... this was (and is and will be for future patches and add-ons), for me, be a part of a Project, a Project in which i firmly believe for its potential, the ideas behind.
As all of you know testers are not paid, sometimes not even with the game they test (some producers do this...no blame intended, just choices ;)), but they need to believe in the things they are doing and, by my part, i believe.
And now tests are really at finishing touches for GT AI, some iusses with teleporting units (i used warping units in beta posts :mrgreen:) and efficency (or not efficency) of artillery... just closing touches... but they need to be tested many times, and the version testers have IS upgraded compared to the demo that is out now... consider this, when i started i had HWLG Version Beta22... now i am testing Version Beta42... that shows how much effort JMM has given to this Project.
Thanks all of you for every suggestion you make... even some other games like CMSF has upgraded thanks even to some harsh but constructive one... and now at version 1.21 is a wonderful game for Modern Combat (at least is the one i like)
;)
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I don't want to repeat the demo is not the best, with a lot of bugs there aren't in the game. It seems this kind of message isn't received.
I can't work on the game during this week, and I can't analyse the different issues. I can understand the bad felling... and I am really sad because it's not a feast.
Wait for a new release... That's all!
It has shown us how the game works, and that's a good thing, I hope none of my post's have been thought of as "bad feeling" it's more one of dis-appointment, but as said above it will all be forgotten in an instant when we see the full game working as it should do.....thanks for the confirmation that the demo is not the same as the game.
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This was only ment to show how the ai works in the demo for me, not critesism
You're fine, Gunfreak. I had a good time reading it and trying to figure out how it could have happened. It's a perfectly valid first impression of a battle, too. We're going to get a lot of the same comments when the game is released, and we need to figure out how to answer them.
I fought the same battle on the French side. I got like 1400 dead, nothing near what you reported. I'm wondering how it happened in your game.
Were you putting your troops in a defensive line in front of the enemy? If you were using the deploy command, where was the final position... in front of the enemy, on top of the enemy or behind him?
Note: I really really hate defensive line. Really.
Hook
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Thanks for your comments Montecuccoli. I have read most threads and to me it seems that people just really want this game to succeed and no-one believes for one second that JMM and the beta testers have not worked incredibly hard! :mrgreen:
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But some how lots of soldiers died, 7000 on my side and 6000 on french, pluss 15 000 wounded on both sides.
Something like 33 000 ran away on my side, while 23 000 french ran.
It was a very non battle, I never felt the corps actualy did what it was supose to do. No cordination on either side.
I just played the battle from the Coalition side and got about 2500 and 2800 "killed and missing" for the two sides. Still nothing like your bloodbath. :)
I did figure out why the corps will stop just out of range and not appear to be doing anything. Check the unit info box on the 2D map for the corps commander. It will say, "Halt for artillery preparation." I don't know how long that takes in the game, but a half hour of actual shooting wouldn't be unusual in real life.
Hook
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This was only ment to show how the ai works in the demo for me, not critesism
What is important when reporting is to give information which are usable for JMM and beta test team. I mean if you say that :
I sent the 20 000 austrians agasint the polish and french, the austirans to sent only a few units at the time
we don't know in what direction we have to search.
So, for example, tells us :
1. what kind of an order you sent (deploy, defend, etc.) and what organization, formation and reserve
2. at what time the order was schedule and at what time it began
3. where did you draw the order line (before, on or behind ennemy position)
4. did the order line appear in 2D and 3D maps
5. what was the information in the CC box (no order, concentrate, etc.)
6. during moves, did the organization and formation in accordance with your orders
7. don't hesitate to send screenshots of your battle plan in 2d map (initial, last position, etc) and CC box
According to this, beta team and JMM can say if it's a bug or a normal performance. And in case of a bug, it's easier for JMM to recognize the problem.
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It has shown us how the game works, and that's a good thing, I hope none of my post's have been thought of as "bad feeling"
No problem Gunner, we all know that it is easier to get over a message when around a table than through screens ;).
What I ask everybody is to give us the more information you can about problems met, as I asked Gunfreak, so we can use them efficiently.
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What is important when reporting is to give information which are usable for JMM and beta test team. I mean if you say that :
we don't know in what direction we have to search.
So, for example, tells us :
1. what kind of an order you sent (deploy, defend, etc.) and what organization, formation and reserve
2. at what time the order was schedule and at what time it began
3. where did you draw the order line (before, on or behind ennemy position)
4. did the order line appear in 2D and 3D maps
5. what was the information in the CC box (no order, concentrate, etc.)
6. during moves, did the organization and formation in accordance with your orders
7. don't hesitate to send screenshots of your battle plan in 2d map (initial, last position, etc) and CC box
According to this, beta team and JMM can say if it's a bug or a normal performance. And in case of a bug, it's easier for JMM to recognize the problem.
1. Deploy, checkerboard, in column
2. The order was sent before the battle started, so they started to move after about 20 minutes in game time.
3. I drew it behind
4. Yes, all orders apeard as red arrows
5. varried from, "wating for artilley deploment" to Concentration mode, to no order, to final order.
6. No most units deployed in line, even as I order column, and as I said, the corps only sent one and one unit at a time, there was no cordinated attack. they all went in peicemel.
7. I'll remember that
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A somewhat crucial :? question for the betatesters (I already asked Montecuccoli in the Italian forum):
Have you ever lost a battle against the AI when playing the (more or less) final version of the game?
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In the full game do divisions hit the enemy line en-mass? In the demo they tend to hit piece-meal and very, very spread out.
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In the full game do divisions hit the enemy line en-mass? In the demo they tend to hit piece-meal and very, very spread out.
The mass effect depends on the lenght you chose for the order line.
For example :
A corp with 12 units and a 50% reserve (2 lines of 6 units) can be deploy with a lenght of 1 800 meters. With use you will know what is the best lenght to choose.
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Thanks I will try that... I get a message saying something like, "changed length og deployment line". I suppose I should make my deployemnt short to ensure the corps hits the enemy together then?
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I suppose I should make my deployemnt short to ensure the corps hits the enemy together then?
This is trickly, is there any kind of guide as to how wide the deployment should be, are we trying to stretch the deployment to wide for the number of Regiments in the Corps ?.
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I don't know what the optimum length might be, but the line changes color if you make it too long.
Hook
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This is trickly, is there any kind of guide as to how wide the deployment should be, are we trying to stretch the deployment to wide for the number of Regiments in the Corps ?.
When drawing the deployment line you can only widen it as long as you have units to fill it, after that you cannot. Of course your level of reserves influence that as these are units that will not be on the front line and so cannot contribute to how wide your front line is.
VC
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Sometimes in the 2D mode when I draw a deployment line I get a 'lightning symbol' and I am unable to draw the line. Is it because I am over the wrong terrain? Too congested because of other Corps?
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Yes thats correct congestion, would be caused as you would have Corps overlapping in the same area, now this can vary depending on any restrictive terrain in the course of the projected move
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Thanks, just as I thought!