HistWar
HistWar (international zone) => Support => Doctrine editor => Discussion démarrée par: gazfun le 17 janvier 2010, 00:07:16 am
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I have been toying with the idea of having differant doctrines to suit the battle situation that presents itself.
For Example
"Assault Doctrine" where I feel I have the numbers and use the pursuit options in the doctrine and instruct the regiment to a more aggesive stance and to run down the enemy, who the players might be in low morale.
"Defend Doctrine" where I dont have the numbers and just want to hang on to this bit of ground as long as possible while inflicting as much damage as possible to an attacker turn off all the pursuit options in the Doctrine to conserve strenght for example.
Also there is other posibities like "Cordon" "Probe" "Attack"
Particulalry if you wanted to stage a few withdrawing battles to slow down an enemy, without over commitment of forces
All these variation would be more usefull in tornaments or Campaigns where there is a series of battles.
Has anyone else thought along these lines yet?
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Has anyone else thought along these lines yet?
Sure this will be the secret book for any clan. ;)
I think this is an inportant part to be superior in a battle.
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So you think by not saying anything to anyone or keeping it a secret, would be better then?
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Each American football team will have a playbook, which is kept secret. You don't want your opponents knowing what plays you might use. LNDavout is probably thinking along similar lines. I can imagine competitive clans thinking their secret playbook is better than the other clan's secret playbook.
For my own part, I expect to be both attacking and defending at some point in any given battle, so I'd rather have one generic set to be used everywhere, with the doctrines tailored to the way I do battle. There may be advantages to having a specific doctrine for a specific situation, but I haven't experimented with the doctrine editor to find out.
Hook
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By the amount of posts neither has many people atm
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No, you're a bit ahead of us there, Gaz.
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When I get the full game I will set up some form of "standard" doctrine I like for each nation I use.
I don't want to be changing it with every MP game, I prefer to know how my troops will behave.
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When I get the full game I will set up some form of "standard" doctrine I like for each nation I use.
I don't want to be changing it with every MP game, I prefer to know how my troops will behave.
Im sure a lot of people would be happy to know that if it where true
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When I get the full game I will set up some form of "standard" doctrine I like for each nation I use.
I don't want to be changing it with every MP game, I prefer to know how my troops will behave.
Im sure a lot of people would be happy to know that if it where true
And the moment you start to rely on it being the same, he'll change it. Surprise! :D
Hint: Always send the doctrine file to the host, even if you aren't changing it often. This way he never knows for sure. :)
Gazfun, you've had more experience with this than any of us. What kind of changes have you found useful?
Hook
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The idea of gazfun is interesting for he uses terms that can be liked to other games; the doctrines names he said are like the tactics for pitched battle in Empires in Arms, so this should even lead to a way in using Empires in Arms pitched battle choices to solve battle with HWLG :D
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Hint: Always send the doctrine file to the host, even if you aren't changing it often. This way he never knows for sure. :)
Hook
So in MP the game doesn´t use my doctrine automatic?
So the host can read see and use it?
btw you are right with the playbook :)
LND
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So in MP the game doesn´t use my doctrine automatic?
Actually, I don't know. Your computer will use your doctrine, obviously, because it's the only one it has. I don't know if the opponents' computers will need it as well, or if it's sent automatically on startup and never seen by a human, or whatever.
I'm so confused.
:)
Hook
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Im sure a lot of people would be happy to know that if it where true
And the moment you start to rely on it being the same, he'll change it. Surprise! :D
Hint: Always send the doctrine file to the host, even if you aren't changing it often. This way he never knows for sure. :)
Gazfun, you've had more experience with this than any of us. What kind of changes have you found useful?
Hook
Well its like this.
Its the like the paper, scissor and rock approach, to your formations, and depending what the background strategy is going to be for a battle you are playing IMO
For example if you are playing a one off battle you would probably select a more general order for reactions to your regiments to cover all contingencies.
Now in a tournament or Campaign you would have a better Idea what your opponent is going to do. I.E. To make your regiments to go after an inferior enemy, in a better formation for charging. This can be adjusted to be more aggresive to charge his Line formations more often when the opportunity is presented to the regiment. And because your oponent would be in a more defensive posture because if he didnt have the numbers on the battlefield, and perhaps you think he is wanting to withdraw from a superior enemy (you) this should reflect and will reflect in your doctrine.
If you study the formations types in the manuel, you will see that there is a better formation to be in when your opponent is in Line, for example, he may chose line because it has many advantages, but it also has disadvantages.
The formation that moves your regiments into position fastest is the one to use, before they are in combat range. if you got them moving around in Line you will find they will get tired easier, and they will be slow to respond, but its a good defensive position, but it has its weaknesses.
You can move then into other formations, that would give you a more universal.
Deep Formations are those mainly used in reserve, and the formation you want them in, depends on the number of troops you have, over the enemy
I can only give you a breif outline here but look at the differances each formation can do for you, and what disadvantages and advantages each has.
Myself I will probably make up abut 5 differant doctrine types, but even these will have to be tested to get the better result, and this is the most wonderfull things about this, its variety, it can be ever changing.
Its a dynamic system. IMO
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So in MP the game doesn´t use my doctrine automatic?
So the host can read see and use it?
btw you are right with the playbook :)
LND
Im not sure but I dont think he can, Ive treid to have a look at one given to me, and I couldnt make any sense out of it. So looks to me that its hidden.
Also there wouldnt be time, as you send this to the host at the time the battle starts
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The idea of gazfun is interesting for he uses terms that can be liked to other games; the doctrines names he said are like the tactics for pitched battle in Empires in Arms, so this should even lead to a way in using Empires in Arms pitched battle choices to solve battle with HWLG :D
Exactly, and I beleive a lot of these tactics have similarities.
I have studied a lot of chit choices that have been made of recent, and there is a direct connection between the dominance of an Army on the EIA battlefield and one that hasnt got dominance.
But of course you cant be too complacent, because if you are too predictable, you are giving your opponent a message. And therby you must continue to adjust your future chit choices or tactics........its a lot of fun!
For example "outflank" seems to have its seasons, its devastating if the other side chose "defend" some say it comes down to luck, but I beleive you make your own luck.
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Where can I check the doctrines are modified as I wish?
I thought it was in ...\HistWar\doctrine.
But there I see I have 4 doctrines for France (one I created) and the 4 text files are the same although I had modified the first priority for artillery to infantry and second priority to Cavalry. But the text files don't reflect those modifications.
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Where can I check the doctrines are modified as I wish?
I thought it was in ...\HistWar\doctrine.
But there I see I have 4 doctrines for France (one I created) and the 4 text files are the same although I had modified the first priority for artillery to infantry and second priority to Cavalry. But the text files don't reflect those modifications.
When you are in the Doctrine intro screen you will see a list under the link "Choose the current Doctrines" click on that, you will see the list of doctrine for that particular Country, you will get a window saying "Choose the doctrine" and any doctines that you created previously, you the select it and it will be the new default Doctrine for your country selection
I hope I have answered your question
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When you are in the Doctrine intro screen you will see a list under the link "Choose the current Doctrines" click on that, you will see the list of doctrine for that particular Country, you will get a window saying "Choose the doctrine" and any doctines that you created previously, you the select it and it will be the new default Doctrine for your country selection
I hope I have answered your question
Thank you for answering.
But I am afraid that once more I explain wrongly (quite possible from a french speaker not gifted (amongst other things) for foreign languages.
I try again: I wish to be sure that the doctrine(s) I have modified are modified.
Therefore I wish to be informed, please, where I can open a file in order to verify the modifications are really taken in account.
Excuse the numerous underlined words. It is a try to compensate a little my english deficiency knowledge.
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well as long as you save your new doctrine correctly, but I suggest that you make a screensave of your doctrine choices on everypage, then save it, then go to your newly defaulted doctrine and compare, thats what I have done.
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I learned that there is no way to put password for your doctrine before sending to your opponent, will that change with the next update or is there any other way to prevent your enemy see it ?
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I learned that there is no way to put password for your doctrine before sending to your opponent, will that change with the next update or is there any other way to prevent your enemy see it ?
Theres nothing to see when he puts in his doctrine folder, except a few words that doesnt make it legable to understand, have you actually looked at the file? If you do its has little bearing on the information thats in the doctrine document that you made.
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Theres nothing to see when he puts in his doctrine folder, except a few words that doesnt make it legable to understand, have you actually looked at the file? If you do its has little bearing on the information thats in the doctrine document that you made.
But you can load the file in the doctrine editor and read its content there.
So, if the host wants to know the doctrine of his enemy he has the means to learn it.
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Now I restart what I initiated in an other thread ( http://www.histwar.org/forum/index.php/topic,3773.msg53372.html#new ).
I make it short, in view to be clear.
I have modified some doctrines for French, Russian, Austrian, ...
When I host a MP, after some chats I may consider for sure, the other player is compelled to use my doctrine de facto.
Each player (even if not hosting) should use his own doctrine, evidently.
This is unfair at a point I think it is a bug.
Cheers,
GP.
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You send the doctrine just before the battle starts. that is in a TC/IP Game as he wont have the time to look at it.
A PBEM game runs on the doctrine you have selected on your machine at the time.
I agree that there is the matter however that other can see it in time, and I would say that will be looked at very soon, with a built in password system like the OOB editor.
adding comment:
Im still not sure if it will be seen, by the other players I will look it up again, and do some checking for you and get back to you
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Theres nothing to see when he puts in his doctrine folder, except a few words that doesnt make it legable to understand, have you actually looked at the file? If you do its has little bearing on the information thats in the doctrine document that you made.
i meant not looking in the text file by double clicking but doing this makes your enemy doctine observed:
put his doctrine file in your comp. doctrine file with correct format 00blabla.txt if France for example...
open doctrine editor...
under create a doctrine topic find his faction and enter...
choose the file name he sent to u ...
hit "creation"...after observing it...quit
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You send the doctrine just before the battle starts. that is in a TC/IP Game as he wont have the time to look at it.
A PBEM game runs on the doctrine you have selected on your machine at the time.
When you say "You" I presume you mean the software.
I agree that there is the matter however that other can see it in time, and I would say that will be looked at very soon, with a built in password system like the OOB editor.
I disagree. The main problem is not the opponent could see or not in my doctrine. The main problem is: the host imposes his own doctrine to his opponent.
Am I clear this time? :-)
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choose the file name he sent to u ...
hit "creation"...after observing it...quit
How helpful is this in actual practice? Even if you printed out screenshots his entire doctrine for reference during the game, how much actual advantage does this give you?
JMM will probably password protect the doctrines at some point, so it shouldn't be a problem.
And if your opponent is going to cheat, then he can always make up a really nasty doctrine file for your side and use that. This could probably be solved by sending the doctrine files through the game instead.
Hook
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The main problem is not the opponent could see or not in my doctrine. The main problem is: the host imposes his own doctrine to his opponent.
This is not true. You send your doctrine to your opponent and that's what your side uses in the game.
Hook
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How helpful is this in actual practice? Even if you printed out screenshots his entire doctrine for reference during the game, how much actual advantage does this give you?
JMM will probably password protect the doctrines at some point, so it shouldn't be a problem.
As I just said before, this is not the main problem, in my point of view.
And if your opponent is going to cheat, then he can always make up a really nasty doctrine file for your side and use that.
I didn't thought about cheaters but you are right this is an open door.
I thought about the unfair aspect.
For example I modified the guns priority to:
- primary target: Infantry;
- second target to Cavalry.
This may not suit the intentions of the non-hosting player, although, actually it is imposed to him.
This could probably be solved by sending the doctrine files through the game instead. Hook
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If the doctrine send from the non-hosting stays in RAM, else that could create a mess in the folder.
I summarize in lapidary style.
From my point of view: the host have use his doctrine and the joining player have to use his own doctrine. Simple as that! :-)
In other words each player have to use his doctrine.
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This is not true. You send your doctrine to your opponent and that's what your side uses in the game. Hook
I suspect a bit you are poking fun at me ;-)
If you are sure of that, why not have you written that from the beginning? The contrary was also emitted.
Also this is contradictory with the manual, if I remember correctly.
Difficult to read the manuals on screen with eyes as old as mine. A print will suck out all my yellow ink because the background is yellow.
GP.
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From the English manual, book 1, page 104:
Also a player on the opposing side will transmit to the host the doctrine file for his
camp. The host will put this file in his “doctrine” folder and uses the doctrine editor to
load the file for the game.
From the French manual, same place:
L’un des joueurs du camp adverse fait aussi parvenir les fichiers « doctrine »
nécessaire à son armée. Le joueur hôte place ces fichiers dans le dossier « Doctrine »
puis utilise l’éditeur de doctrine pour les intégrer à la partie.
The PDF readers have a zoom function if the print is too small to read normally. I know this very well, because my eyes are probably older than yours. :D
Hook
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There has been mention about a host changing the clients doctrine.
Be assured if you found this out, and you can do so easily you wont be playing with that host again will you?
Also you will have to remember that while actually setting up a game the host can receive up to four or more differant doctrines according to the number of allies on each side.
With that amount of information coming in there wont be time enough for the Host to change his doctrine. The host would be more concerned about his own army and its own allied doctrines, to be plotting against just your doctrine.
Its a bigger picture issue, than you think.
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Think about it in terms of history.
Do you think the French did not know the Austrian doctrine?
I don't know, but I imagine the enemy doctrines were common knowledge among the Generals of that time.
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Think about it in terms of history.
Do you think the French did not know the Austrian doctrine?
I don't know, but I imagine the enemy doctrines were common knowledge among the Generals of that time.
good point Ras
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Alright. A warm than you for your devotion to moderate in general and about my questions in particular.
So, all is correct and logical.
Best regards,
GP.
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Citation de: Ras le 11 Février 2010, 12:57:56
Think about it in terms of history.
Do you think the French did not know the Austrian doctrine?
I don't know, but I imagine the enemy doctrines were common knowledge among the Generals of that time.
good point Ras
An old post - I just read it, but it is not such a good point.
It took the Allied armies years to imitate Napoleon tactics; in the first few years they didn't really know what hit them.
Moreover, communication on enemy tactics was distorted, of course, for various reasons. They are all eyewitness accounts and therefore by default inaccurate.
Eyewitness accounts can be distorted due to bias by personal pride (how is a commander going to admit he lost), or just by the fact that there was so much gunpowder smoke and sound around, that the eyewitness didn't really see or hear what was going on.
Place this next to the fact that armies didn't always adhere to their doctrine (parade grounds are a bit different from battlefields, and battle stress makes people act differently), and it must have been difficult to really get a good picture of the exact doctrine imposed on the enemy.
As a quick example after reading about Waterloo: to the French, it will have appeared that gun doctrine of the British was Counter-Battery Fire. Wellington however, had given strict instructions not to engage enemy batteries. But as soon as the Grande Batterie started hammering away, the British gun commanders got nervous and returned fire.
And hey, Napoleonic generals didn't have the opportunity to repeat the same battle the very next day. Nor did they have a replay option :) So doctrine analysis must have been (educated) guesswork, distilled from the various eyewitness accounts, previous battle reports, and spy reports - it would have taken a lot of time to get a clear picture that was close to the truth.