HistWar
HistWar (English zone) => General discussions => Discussion démarrée par: atd le 20 décembre 2009, 12:19:57 pm
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You're assuming it's not working properly. It's certainly working properly enough to be a lot of fun to play, and for a lot of people, too. There are more people here who like it than otherwise.
This will depend on how you define "rapidly." Give a time frame and we can discuss how realistic it is. How long have you been a professional programmer? What game companies have you worked for? Got a link to your Mobygames entry? How many games have your name in the credits in the printed manual?
I'd prefer to keep them, but that's just me. Would you rather have # instead?
This is pretty much how most us view the situation.
Careful there.
Keep in mind that JMM reads English, too.
Hook
Yes, I'm assuming it's not working properly. It's a reasonable assumption.
'Rapidly' - well, let's base that on the overall development time for the game, the rate of progress over the past eighteen months and the sole developer issue. Several months, at least.
Since you ask, I've programmed since 1980, had games published in my sole name, been MD of a software development company (managing many projects and programmers) and developed extremely lucrative internationally cutting edge software. What's your experience then?
You want to keep £? Why, it's wrong? Why suggest #, which is also wrong? No, I want the correct abbreviation but it seems doubtful that you even know what that is...
Careful? Oh, dear me no.
I'm pretty sure that French is the main language around Lyons and that JMM prefers French.
//
Please just accept that some people here do not share your view and, as Holdit has perceptively noted, it's a view likely to be much more widespread outside of the posters to this forum.
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Yes, I'm assuming it's not working properly. It's a reasonable assumption.
You'll have to take that up with all the people on this forum who have been playing and enjoying the demo. And all the people who have pre-ordered.
'Rapidly' - well, let's base that on the overall development time for the game, the rate of progress over the past eighteen months and the sole developer issue. Several months, at least.
Ok, thanks. That was my estimate too before I saw the demo. I've revised my estimate down since then.
Since you ask, I've programmed since 1980, had games published in my sole name, been MD of a software development company (managing many projects and programmers) and developed extremely lucrative internationally cutting edge software. What's your experience then?
I don't see any verifiable information there.
I started my professional programming career in March 1976 in the Pentagon. This might be easier to believe if you knew I was in the US Army at the time, and everyone from the programming school was assigned there from the class I was in except for the foreign officers.
One of the games that you might have a copy of the printed manual with my name in it is Austerlitz: Napoleon's Greatest Victory. There are others.
I'm still waiting for a link to your MobyGames entry.
You want to keep £? Why, it's wrong? Why suggest #, which is also wrong? No, I want the correct abbreviation but it seems doubtful that you even know what that is...
Personal insults? Do you enjoy being able to post on this forum? Do you wish to be able to continue?
Why, exactly, would # be wrong? For that matter, why would £ be wrong for JMM?
Please just accept that some people here do not share your view and, as Holdit has perceptively noted, it's a view likely to be much more widespread outside of the posters to this forum.
What does that have to do with anything?
Hook
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Why, exactly, would # be wrong? For that matter, why would £ be wrong for JMM?
Because £ is a unit of currency.
Holdit
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£ = Libra, a pound weight in Latin so it makes sense
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£ = Libra, a pound weight in Latin so it makes sense
So £ was a unit of weight long before it was a unit of currency? :)
I know I've seen £ used in cannon weights outside the game, I just don't remember, in 35 years of reading, where I saw it.
Hook
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I think that a pound (weight) of silver produced 240 pennies in the old days. So a pound (weight) did mean £1. I'm not sure when the silver penny went out of use in England.
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Hook - it is not a personal insult to say that you do not understand something, particularly if it is true. On the other hand threatening censorship and implying dishonesty is, well... insulting.
[EDIT JMM] The first troll of this forum.. YEP... The first one I am banning for the next insult..
If you still believe £ is the correct notation for lb, then that's your affair. I prefer to regard it as an aberration of conversion to English, which along with all the other errors in the manual, is what it is. 'Cavalry artillery' indeed.
But let's look at the wider reality - the demo from a session today...
1 Run the program three times until it allows me in.
2 Order just one corps to move. It starts to move in half the advertised time. Then, within 12 minutes of battle time...
3 Units flash up as 'out of map'. They are not but some are indicated as destroyed (Austrian death ray - see Chandler et al).
4 Several messages flash along the bottom of the screen (too fast to read) regarding destroyed units. By whom?
5 An enemy corps flag appears in the middle of my formations from nowhere (but it is not present on the F3 map - this is not a FOW isue but a bug)
6 Clicking on a despatch causes all sorts of meaningless and incorrect actions.
A few minutes of play and I'm done with it. My time is worth more.
And does 'attacked' mean that, or should it say 'attacking'
It's unplayable. I've refrained form directing friends to the demo because I know it will put them off. If you can see the emperor's new clothes, then your eyesight is better than mine.
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Thoughts about the demo feedback will be addressed to JMM.
However harsh attacks concerning JMM choices are, obviously, not so welcome; so please leave unuseful flames away there are plenty of games out there to be played..... or just program and produce another one, i will be glad to help testing it.
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Hook - it is not a personal insult to say that you do not understand something, particularly if it is true. On the other hand threatening censorship and implying dishonesty is, well... insulting.
If you still believe £ is the correct notation for lb, then that's your affair. I prefer to regard it as an aberration of conversion to English, which along with all the other errors in the manual, is what it is. 'Cavalry artillery' indeed.
But let's look at the wider reality - the demo from a session today...
1 Run the program three times until it allows me in.
2 Order just one corps to move. It starts to move in half the advertised time. Then, within 12 minutes of battle time...
3 Units flash up as 'out of map'. They are not but some are indicated as destroyed (Austrian death ray - see Chandler et al).
4 Several messages flash along the bottom of the screen (too fast to read) regarding destroyed units. By whom?
5 An enemy corps flag appears in the middle of my formations from nowhere (but it is not present on the F3 map - this is not a FOW isue but a bug)
6 Clicking on a despatch causes all sorts of meaningless and incorrect actions.
A few minutes of play and I'm done with it. My time is worth more.
And does 'attacked' mean that, or should it say 'attacking'
It's unplayable. I've refrained form directing friends to the demo because I know it will put them off. If you can see the emperor's new clothes, then your eyesight is better than mine.
Do you permit I spill out my 2 cents.
From my raw english knowledge the quarrel about "£" and "#" is flying above my head (Mates who know me are thinking "we are not surprised"). Because it is fo me unintelligible it appears to be childish.
About the demo: I think if you consider it was a stumble to hastily assembled, all of us could agree peacefully.
Please, wait the full game and don't claim judgement over a febrile human reaction as was the demo. I found the greatest comfident about the full game (I hear sarcastical guys whispering "normal he had already paid for". I protest vigorously, money is not for me, at the moment, my first pensiveness. Although when I consider the evoluton of it ... hahem ... but that is another story), had the testers not said many times the full game is less bugged? Is JMM not actually as in the past working to ameliorate the program?
I am sure the harbour is not so far, considering that.
Peace and love! Huh? Am I rejuvenating???
Cheers,
GP.
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@ adt...
I'm pretty sure that French is the main language around Lyons and that JMM prefers French.
You don't like French.. no my problem..
For me, no problem with English people... I work with a lot of very nice guy... Huge difference!
A few minutes of play and I'm done with it. My time is worth more.
Right.. I engage you to leave this forum...
I don't like the man like you... You talk about my game, just listing the problems, not about the good parts.
The difference between you and me.. you write.. I build!!!!
Last advertisement before banning... No time to spend with you...
JMM
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From my raw english knowledge the quarrel about "£" and "#" is flying above my head (Mates who know me are thinking "we are not surprised"). Because it is fo me unintelligible it appears to be childish.
I agree that it appears to be childish.
# is sometimes used in America as an abbreviation for "pound". The symbol is usually called the "pound sign".
£ is used as the currency sign in the UK, as $ is used in the US. It refers to "Pounds Sterling".
I do not know if £ was commonly used to refer to cannon weights, although I have seen it used that way. I don't know if this is standard for French.
Edit: It's not standard French. JMM says he saw it in English. I saw it in English too, as I don't read French, but I didn't remember if it was a translation from a French document.
When talking about guns, the British often use a different abbreviation for pounds than the Americans. Both use more than one letter, which takes up more screen space. I'm guessing the French abbreviation would be different from either the Brit or the American one.
Hope this helps.
Hook
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It's unplayable.
it' not. I've played with the demo since its release, and even with bugs, it's the best nappy game out there.
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I agree that it appears to be childish.
# is sometimes used in America as an abbreviation for "pound". The symbol is usually called the "pound sign".
£ is used as the currency sign in the UK, as $ is used in the US. It refers to "Pounds Sterling".
I do not know if £ was commonly used to refer to cannon weights, although I have seen it used that way. I don't know if this is standard for French.
Edit: It's not standard French. JMM says he saw it in English. I saw it in English too, as I don't read French, but I didn't remember if it was a translation from a French document.
When talking about guns, the British often use a different abbreviation for pounds than the Americans. Both use more than one letter, which takes up more screen space. I'm guessing the French abbreviation would be different from either the Brit or the American one.
Hope this helps.
Hook
Thank you for the explanation. Definetely, for my narrowed mind, it don't be worth for a war ... even in words :roll:.
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When talking about cannon size, I am used to this expression :
12pdr
which means 12 "pounder".
I would like to see "pdr", but GP is correct, a big arguement over a tiny thing.
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When talking about cannon size, I am used to this expression :
12pdr
which means 12 "pounder".
I would like to see "pdr", but GP is correct, a big arguement over a tiny thing.
And this looks odd to me. I'm used to seeing 12 lb. There is not one way that's correct and all the others wrong. In the past I've seen 12 lb, 12 pdr, 12£ and 12# and in French it's 12 livres, I'm not sure of the abbreviation in that case. All of these are correct. I'd prefer seeing £ rather than #.
£ has the advantage that it's been used in Napoleonic literature and it's understandable by all of us, and is only one character which may make a difference on some display screens in the game.
Edit to add: When I downloaded the very first version of the English manual, I made a list of corrections to send to JMM. I noticed the £ in the manual, and I did think about it for a couple of seconds before deciding not to comment on it, for the reasons given in this excerpt from a message I sent to JMM:
There are a number of words not mentioned below that I would not have used myself if I were writing the manual, but since they are not wrong or confusing I have left them to give the game its own unique "flavor."
Hook
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I'm used to seeing 12 lb
That would be if you were weighting food, like a 3 lb Chicken, for example.
The main thing is if "£" or "#" are used we know what it means.
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Ok, so the use of "lb" and "pdr" comes down to American or British usage. I remember the Brits having guns like "4 pounder" in World War II, maybe even today. Americans don't use that system as far as I know. Direct fire guns are measured in millimeters and indirect fire guns mostly in inches, sometimes millimeters.
Since we don't have a tradition of using "pdr" for our guns, we never see that abbreviation.
This has been interesting. :)
Hook
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For the record - I do not dislike the French JMM, nor have I made any comment here that could be construed thus. 'Le diner de cons' is one of my favourite comedies... Other than that I prefer to ignore personal comments, whatever the source.
It would be constructive if the apparent problems in the session that I outlined earlier could be addressed / explained. May I ask whether these problems are confined to the demo?
It would be nice if the £ error could be fixed. It is a very minor thing but it is just that being so minor, one would have hoped that the extended period of beta testing would have eliminated such things. lb, lber, or pdr would all be acceptable.
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It would be nice if the £ error could be fixed.
Except that it's not an error. Sorry, atd.
Hook
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It would be constructive ...
You are arrogant... I think the best is you leave this forum...
JMM
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You are arrogant... I think the best is you leave this forum...
JMM
JMM,
I was tracking this game from the very begining. It is almost 10 years now. I remember the first game video you released is a Russian square under fire. I was immediately attacted and since then I followed this game to today.
Please ignore those unconstructive comments. As a loyal fan of this game, I really appreciate your and the team's effort to bring our dreams to be true. I know there are bugs in the game but what game is free of bugs? This game is totally different from other war game. I would say it is a breakthough and milestone. It is just like the first generation windows operation system. When it is first brought to the public, almost nobody likes it. Because people got use to DOS at that time. But now who is still using DOS?
It is time for us to show you support. Please do not feel frustrated because of some bad comments. You still have us. We are your Old Guard and you can rely on us.
Please forgave me for my poor English which is not my native language too.
Sincerely
Your loyal Old Guard
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Thx a lot...
I think I am dead lucky to develop this game with your support.
I know there are some bugs but it's important the first release avoids the frustration.. it's my objective.
I try to read all topics.. but no really easy today because I have to finish the game.
After the release, we work together to adjust the parameters if need.
I am sure we'll talk with a spirit of openness and conviviality.
My English is not the best but I hope everybody can understand ;)
JMM
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JMM, We are with you all the way. Ignore the naysayers. Ranting is very easy using the medium of the forum.
Sellick, (A vey appreciative supporter)
:D :D
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Ok, so the use of "lb" and "pdr" comes down to American or British usage. I remember the Brits having guns like "4 pounder" in World War II, maybe even today. Americans don't use that system as far as I know. Direct fire guns are measured in millimeters and indirect fire guns mostly in inches, sometimes millimeters.
Since we don't have a tradition of using "pdr" for our guns, we never see that abbreviation.
I guess there are several abbreviations that could be used. In English language "pdr" for pounder would be most common and sometimes just "pr" or even "pd" for pound. And in USA it would not be any different, just look at the ACW era Artillerists Manual by John Gibbon that use both "prd"/"pd" and pounder/pound.
I can't recall encountering the use of "£" in any literature I have read, I guess it could be in some books though but that does not make it correct though. A lot of people write "loose" instead of "lose" but that is not correct either even though most people understand the meaning. And of course same thing can be said about "lbs" or "lb" as that is purely used for actual weights (of guns, carriage, ammo etc) and not something that is part of the technical name/term for a specific gun.
CBR
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I guess there are several abbreviations that could be used. In English language "pdr" for pounder would be most common
Well, I've seen it, even if I can't remember where. JMM has seen it, that's why he used it, but you'll have to ask him where. It's not like he made it up. The difference between loose and lose would be caught by an editor, and this got by, no matter where we read it.
If we know that it's been used before, can we say that it's absolutely wrong? Even if it's not the commonest usage, is it still wrong? Is it just a matter of opinion and a stylistic preference? Is one symbol really enough to judge the entire game?
If JMM does decide to change it, then "pdr" would likely be the correct English version. Someone needs to go through all the screens and make sure the longer strings will still fit all the text boxes in 1024x768 resolution. This includes other programs that weren't included in the demo.
Hook
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If we know that it's been used before, can we say that it's absolutely wrong? Even if it's not the commonest usage, is it still wrong? Is it just a matter of opinion and a stylistic preference? Is one symbol really enough to judge the entire game?
It is a sign for the British currency and has AFAIK no other use. And no, I don't judge the entire game because of such an error. I see it as belonging to the words, some on the manual and some in the game, that could do with a better translation. Something that could be discussed in a less heated way IMO, that is all.
CBR
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JMM, We are with you all the way. Ignore the naysayers. Ranting is very easy using the medium of the forum.
Agreed! LG is like no other Napoleonic simulation (I've played just about all of them). JMM, don't lose focus on negative comments.
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THX... Don't worry, this problem is fixed up.
About the "£" or other "pdr" to define the type of cannon.. really... Let say your choice for the next version ;)
About the translation... An important part of the text was translated by a professional English translator, another part from an American both translator and wargamer... a third part from a French... but the professional translator verifies and said the translation is right.. so I don't understand..
Do you have some examples about the bugs..
JMM
PS : I chose '£' because I saw it in the text I read... no more.
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It is a sign for the British currency and has AFAIK no other use. And no, I don't judge the entire game because of such an error. I see it as belonging to the words, some on the manual and some in the game, that could do with a better translation. Something that could be discussed in a less heated way IMO, that is all.
Ok. I'll agree with you on the translation issues. I don't know if anything can be done about the manual if it's already gone to press, but everything in the game is in a text file somewhere and is easy enough to change. I've already made a lot of changes myself and sent them to JMM. I don't think anyone would complain if you wanted to help. Send me a private message if you're interested so we don't duplicate effort.
Even if the game is released with some translation problems, we can still fix it easily in a mod.
If I hadn't seen the 12£ notation elsewhere I certainly would have commented on it. For me, it's like the time format 11h30... not what I'm used to but not wrong either.
Hook
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... but the professional translator verifies and said the translation is right..
I think your professional translator wasn't familiar with the terminology used. No problem, we'll fix it.
Hook
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I think other posters have already commented on alternative translations for some words, some of it dating back to when the manual was released. I think you already have stated that the manual would have a few changes. So I doubt I can add anything.