HistWar
HistWar (English zone) => General discussions => Discussion démarrée par: timelord le 13 mai 2010, 01:48:43 am
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Hi All
I was wondering if anyone could explain this that happened last night when I was playing the new demo.
My cavalry had pushed a Russian brigade into a squire, the Russians where on their own with no art support or cavalry support.
I sent in my infantry to attack them, my infantry where in line and moved up and started to fire at the Russians, the Russian infantry fired a few times at my troops.
My infantry had not been in a form of combat and had no casualty at all, up until the Russian fired on them, my infantry did not at any time get fired at with any Russian artillery.
My cavalry where still pinning the Russian troop, and their where no Russian cavalry any where near my troops when this happened
After a few rounds of fire my infantry just turned and ran away! I have been playing table top Napoleonic’s for over 30 years, I can understand if my troop’s morel was at rock bottom and this could happen, but totally fresh infantry being routed by a shoot up squire is a little bit strange indeed
Could someone please explain this to me why this happened?
All the best
Darren
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As I've found out over many battles and you may suspect, HLG never ceasses to surprise and what seems on the face of it, wrong, often turns out to be right. Without watching your replay file I don't know the answer but there are many factors in HLG that influence routing. Had they become Fatigued on the way and what was their Moral level? You can check these things in the unit info box. Had any nearby friendly units routed? Had any Guard units regardless of location routed? was the Corp they belonged to under pressure?
There are many better qualified than me to answer you but these are just some ideas.
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Hi Darren.
In your normal tabletop wargames, how long does it take for a routed unit to recover so they can get back into action? It's usually quite a while in rulesets I've seen.
How long did it take your infantry to recover and get back into battle in HWLG? It's usually very short if no one is chasing them.
The "rout" condition in HWLG is more like a forced back result in other games. Does the combat result make more sense if you think of it as a forced back result instead of a rout?
In the game, a unit will only stand under fire for a certain amount of time. This time is shown at the bottom of the unit info card near the center in red numbers when it's in effect. When this timer expires, the unit will do a disorderly retreat, and recover quickly after they're out of contact. The game calls this condition "rout", and after considerable discussion we've been unable to come up with a better term that covers all conditions where a unit will do this.
What most other games call rout, HWLG handles by having the unit leave the battlefield. They won't be available for combat for the remainder of the battle. You may get them back the next day in a multi-day battle, but I haven't tested this.
Hook
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Hook, I didn't realise that definition. You learn something everyday :idea: :idea: :idea:
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I think HWLG was designed from the ground up as a simulation, and was done without regard to many standard wargame conventions you see in other games. So a few things aren't going to work the way you are used to.
For example, units will leave the field because of casualties, not because of morale. Units with low morale will keep fighting, at least until the maximum "rout timer" is so low that they run away immediately upon encountering an enemy.
Things like morale and fatigue will determine whether a unit thinks it has an advantage in combat, which is handled by the regimental AI, so a unit that's fatigued and has low morale will not attack, but will stand and defend if attacked. At some point they'll simply "rout" if approached, but usually recover after they're out of contact. Occasionally you'll see a unit that's in such bad shape that it will rout completely off the map without recovering.
Hook
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Dear Hook,
In the game, a unit will only stand under fire for a certain amount of time. This time is shown at the bottom of the unit info card near the center in red numbers when it's in effect. When this timer expires, the unit will do a disorderly retreat, and recover quickly after they're out of contact. The game calls this condition "rout", and after considerable discussion we've been unable to come up with a better term that covers all conditions where a unit will do this.
Hook
But in this case wouldn't it be more realistic (and safe) to perform an orderly retreat? What used to happen in historical combats? Do you have any info on this?
Regards,
António
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HI
Thanks hook for the replay
just to add a bit more detail ,the Russian unit had marched out a long way on it own and as I said had no support at all , my troops where marching in column .
This combat happened right at the start of the game, none of my other units had engaged apart from my cavalry that had pinned them in place.
The fatigue level of my troops was 3 at the start of the combat, my unit had no hits on them at all, and I was using three bridges as an advance guard along with four units of light cavalry and a unit of horse artillery
The rest of my army was 500 meters behind them at this point; I had even fired a few round of horse artillery at them as well, the Russian where not guard units, but just normal line.
I find it very hard to understand how a squire can bounce four units in line ,that have far more fire power than a squire , my unit did rally once it had gone back ,but by then they where a bit worn out ,as their fatigue level had shot up.
All the best
Darren
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But in this case wouldn't it be more realistic (and safe) to perform an orderly retreat?
Sometimes they do fall back, most times they'll run away. It probably depends on the quality of the troops involved. Doing an orderly disengagement from combat is probably the most difficult thing a commander ever had to do on a battlefield. Once troops had advanced into combat, they were effectively out of control of the commanders, and ordering them to do anything was difficult.
For example, everyone knew that a bayonet charge was the most effective way to dislodge an enemy. Everyone wanted to do it. But the troops would stop and start firing on their own instead of advancing to bayonet distance. Sometimes they wouldn't advance until their ammunition was gone. And all that fire seldom caused many casualties, as the troops invariably fired too high.
A square is difficult to dislodge. The troops won't run away from the safety of the square, because they're safer in the square than out of it, even running away. The square will not disband because they'll instantly be ridden down by cavalry. So the square isn't operating under the same constraints as a unit in line. They'll stand much longer. There is even one recorded case of a unit forming square to defend against infantry, although this was considered highly unusual. At least the troops couldn't run away.
A unit in line approaches a square and begins firing, and takes return fire. The square does not move. Eventually the line has enough and moves away when they're unable to make the square retreat. Higher quality troops will stay and fight longer. Eventually the square takes enough casualties that it leaves the field. But from what I've seen, the square will not lose it's formation unless it gets a rout result for whatever reason, and that takes a while.
A bayonet charge against a square is difficult, because in almost all cases, one unit will rout rather than fight. The square generally won't rout, so it will be the attackers who retreat.
Units don't take fatigue from marching nearly as much as they do from being in combat. These guys could march all day, and fight at the end of it. About the only time you'll see a unit accumulate fatigue from marching is when they're going uphill. But a short period of combat will produce considerable fatigue.
Hook
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Hook
Very well explained.
Also i have seen this in some battle,but at least the casualties for the square should be high.
How example Waterloo , square even advancing but was Old Guard.
Thank
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HI
Thanks hook for the replay
just to add a bit more detail ,the Russian unit had marched out a long way on it own and as I said had no support at all , my troops where marching in column .
This combat happened right at the start of the game, none of my other units had engaged apart from my cavalry that had pinned them in place.
The fatigue level of my troops was 3 at the start of the combat, my unit had no hits on them at all, and I was using three bridges as an advance guard along with four units of light cavalry and a unit of horse artillery
The rest of my army was 500 meters behind them at this point; I had even fired a few round of horse artillery at them as well, the Russian where not guard units, but just normal line.
I find it very hard to understand how a squire can bounce four units in line ,that have far more fire power than a squire , my unit did rally once it had gone back ,but by then they where a bit worn out ,as their fatigue level had shot up.
All the best
Darren
Darren, are you sure that your LOP was not taken by the enemy (even if only 1 or 2 units)? That could explain that your troops were routing all the time. It already happened to me (in fact there is another thread where this issue was debated).
Regards,
António
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Hook
Very well explained.
Also i have seen this in some battle,but at least the casualties for the square should be high.
How example Waterloo , square even advancing but was Old Guard.
Thank
Yeah, the square should take more casualties than a line in a firefight. Specially if artillery is also involved.
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The game calls this condition "rout", and after considerable discussion we've been unable to come up with a better term that covers all conditions where a unit will do this.
Did you consider "retire", "reform" or "pull back" if the rout is not really a real rout - it does sound like a different description would be a good idea if the rout is not really a rout, as most people understand it.
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Did you consider "retire", "reform" or "pull back" if the rout is not really a real rout - it does sound like a different description would be a good idea if the rout is not really a rout, as most people understand it.
Probably all of those. The time to change it was before we shipped 600+ copies of the game though. I threw it open for discussion when I was doing the translation cleanups. Someone would have to come up with something absolutely perfect for it to be changed now, as everyone is used to the old term, but ideas are welcome.
Part of the problem is, one term needs to cover every condition. For example, when cavalry charges, at the end of the charge they will move behind their second line to reform. This was typical, as they'd get a bit scattered during the charge. This isn't quite the same condition where two infantry units are in a firefight and one decides it has had enough and leaves. Both cases are examples of a disordered retreat, which is the closest term I could come up with. Most of the other terms you'd think would be good are already used in the game for something else.
The condition is generally caused by enemy activity, the units affected are out of control and will move away from enemy forces, and they will reform quickly unless being pursued. If a unit in this condition is overtaken by an enemy, they usually become prisoners after a melee. The condition is not necessarily caused by morale or fatigue, as it is quite temporary, although very low morale or fatigue may cause a unit to take longer to recover. I've seen units exit the map in this condition even when not pursued.
Hook
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Hook, I have a suggestion. Leave the name as it is.
In a future patch, change the RED cross in the F2 unit Icon to ORANGE for units Retiring, Reforming, Pulling back etc...and use the RED for units routing off the field.
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What a good idea, simple and effective, no need for any words, just a different colour for a "temporary" rout, regardless of what caused it.....gets my vote.
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Hook, I have a suggestion. Leave the name as it is.
In a future patch, change the RED cross in the F2 unit Icon to ORANGE for units Retiring, Reforming, Pulling back etc...and use the RED for units routing off the field.
Well, from the commander's point of view (who is observing the unit from a distance with his telescope) would he be able to realize the difference, unless the troops are able to reform again already outside of the enemy's firing range?
Regards,
António
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Marques, we don't yet have a telescope mode in F3 or F2 and very few will fight "View locked to CinC" until we do. There is a telescope mode in F4 but not many people like the F4 mode.
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Hook, I have a suggestion. Leave the name as it is.
In a future patch, change the RED cross in the F2 unit Icon to ORANGE for units Retiring, Reforming, Pulling back etc...and use the RED for units routing off the field.
Sounds good. +1 ! :mrgreen:
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Marques, we don't yet have a telescope mode in F3 or F2 and very few will fight "View locked to CinC" until we do. There is a telescope mode in F4 but not many people like the F4 mode.
Dear ajlewisbrookes
I did not refer to a telescope mode. In HW-LG, you are the commander, so maybe (maybe) you should not be able to realize the difference.
... Unless, the game depicts a unit as "routing" even when the intent is to simulate an orderly retreat. From the postings I've read, this is not the case, since sometimes, depending on troop quality, units are able to perform an orderly retreat in the same situation.
Regards,
António
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When we start fighting MP, which we hope will be soon, in many of the battles I will be fighting as a Corps Commander not CinC. Consequently I will be very close to my units and would like to see there status by the color of the X. Anyhow this is just a wish list and is probably more suited in the "Evolution" Forum.
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Hook, I have a suggestion. Leave the name as it is.
In a future patch, change the RED cross in the F2 unit Icon to ORANGE for units Retiring, Reforming, Pulling back etc...and use the RED for units routing off the field.
Why?
Currently units leaving the field already have their own color, which is perfectly fine. Some variations on red icons are already used for units out of control and fleeing which is what is described by "rout" in the game.
Watching from the CinC or corps commander view, it's fairly obvious what each unit is doing without looking at the map. Watching the map it's obvious what each unit is doing from it's color and symbol.
The only problem was that the word "rout" was used in some cases where you wouldn't normally think of it being a rout. The map colors are not the problem and never were.
Hook
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What a good idea, simple and effective, no need for any words, just a different colour for a "temporary" rout, regardless of what caused it.....gets my vote.
They're ALL temporary unless the unit is leaving the field, and that already produces a different colored icon.
Hook
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When we start fighting MP, which we hope will be soon, in many of the battles I will be fighting as a Corps Commander not CinC. Consequently I will be very close to my units and would like to see there status by the color of the X. Anyhow this is just a wish list and is probably more suited in the "Evolution" Forum.
Ok, I'm convinced. I support your idea 100%.
Regards,
António
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Hook, I'm not trying to create extra work and it really isn't that important to me but the grayed out look of the unit leaving the field doesn't really catch the eye. Maybe just change the gray to something a little more eye catching but in the pecking oder of things it's not a big issue for me
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Darren, are you sure that your LOP was not taken by the enemy (even if only 1 or 2 units)? That could explain that your troops were routing all the time. It already happened to me (in fact there is another thread where this issue was debated).
Regards,
António
HI
No enemy unit where any where now my LOP,as the rest of my army was right behind the infantry that ran away.
The enemy brigade was right out in front of thier own army ,with no other units within 800 meters.
The enemy unit that routed my troops just sat thier like a rock,i had to send in a new Birgade just to get them to move back.
All the best
Darren