HistWar
HistWar (English zone) => General discussions => Discussion démarrée par: antiochus le 30 novembre 2009, 21:45:10 pm
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Ok I've read all the bad posts about the demo at this and others sights and I'm very perplexed. What game did you think you were buying " Dragon age "? The screenshots showed all the graphics and should have answered anyones questions as far as to what the game would look like. it's not eye candy it's a simulation of a Napoleonic age battlefield. So enough on the graphics.
Next, to the bug situation.I've been a tester for two other wargames and this is not the commodore 64 age. Every owner of a computer, even owners who have the same model # could or do have all different hardware inside your rigs. I never had any problems running any game on Vista machines but I've seen tons of posts of people who swear that their problem with a game is Vista.Now I'm not saying that this demo doesn't have bugs but please your upset because of the musket fire sounds. This is a two minute fix or a moddable one, not a major problem in the least. I just bought Divinity 2 and it refuses to play on many ( including mine ) cpu's. Not that it has bugs it won't work. You should look at the customers on that forum.
Now onto buggy releases.Here's a few that have turned into gems that at release were either horrid or damn near unplayable. Gothic 3 ( really the whole series ), Hearts of Iron series, Paradox titles nearly all of them and talk about graphics look at Mount and Blade for an Rpg it looks like it was made in 95 even though it is an excellent game. Sacred 2 which I love has the distinction of getting buggier with every update. If you want beautiful but bad games please go play the Total war series. Ever since Shogun we have been told that the AI is better and better. Even with mods that equal 2 gigs the AI in Empire total war is as dumb as a post.
Flame ban me or whatever but when I see people posting things like " I'm not going to buy this because I've read that the musket fire sounds like machine guns " it just makes me mad as a wet hen. Here's a thought go play Modern warfare 2 which is beautiful but dumber than a rock. Give me Ghost recon anyday over it.
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Agree but... Personally I am not whining about graphics, sound etc. This game was announced with features like orders, commanding corps, great TacAI and there I can see the major problem for me. It simply doesn`t work at this time (but it may be just my opinion).
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Flame ban me or whatever but when I see people posting things like " I'm not going to buy this because I've read that the musket fire sounds like machine guns "
Can you please provide evidence of this statement, like a link or something. I made a comment about the musket fire sometimes sounding like a machine-gun and someone else agreed. It won't stop be buying the game as I totally agree with you it's a minor bug. Maybe someone else has said they won't buy it but it certainly wasn't me.
My view is that the demo has some bugs and issues but on the whole I think it is exactly what I was expecting for a niche game by an independent developer.
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No one's said they weren't going to buy it because of the bugs.
Hook
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What were you expecting?
Something more polished after all these years of waiting and about two years of beta testing.
And I don't even speak about the graphics. Though it does not hurt to have eye candy if it does not hurt performance too much. Nice packages sell goods, brown bags not that well.
And rest assured, I want JMM to succeed. But at the moment I'm on the fence to buy. For me to buy a PC game it has to grip me somehow, but the demo does not yet. But I have a deeper look over the next days.
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I was expecing the full ai in the game, but right now the ai is missing vital parts, I can live with all other bugs, but with out the ai, the demo simply does not play the way the game was ment to play, the battles are stuck, you can't attack like you are supose to, the ai can't win, because of the lack of tactical ai
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I can't remeber having read anything about people complaining about the graphics, but when units disappear or teleport to other places IMO there are some major problems, and if that's because funcionality and AI routines were left out of the demo it's a shame because people will get the wrong impression about the game.
LvD
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I thought I'd be buying this game as it is, BUT working correctly, and I don't mean technically, that's fine, it installs, plays, no problems, but something very serious is wrong......
Cavalry Units VANISH after being fired on by one artillery volley.
Regiments in fire fights take casuaties for a little while, then carry on shooting at each other for another 10 minutes without losing a single man on either side.
Enemy units close to each other take NO action at all, but stand there doing nothing, not even turning to face the right direction.
Artillery goes off way in front and deploys nearer the enemy, than friendy forces.
Nothing appears to make any attempt to protect the artillery.
The orders system might not be working correctly, some Corps orders NEVER get carried out no matter how long you wait, like 3 hours.....and it happens a lot.
This game will be the best ever IF these things like this are fixed, but hell, what have the beta testers been doing - no offence guys, but wow......
ps/the graphics are as expected, I'm not interested in Empire type graphics, the graphics are fine, not good from long range camera views but use F6 and it looks excellent....the overall sound is not that good, but that's a tiny point, it's the way the units behave which is the most worrying aspect.
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I agree with gunner24 in his analysis.
Vanishing is a problem
The casualty rate is a problem, even with being bombarded by artillery (admittedly in a town) not a man was lost - morale did go down and they routerd so that was good.
Non reaction of nearby units is a problem - but this can be attributed to the reduced AI in the Demo - not a concern for me(I hope)
I have seen artillery do this, but seems to be if the artillery is still limbered, then it tries to attack hand to hand, and then realises it is artillery when closer to the enemy and starts strutting its stuff. - can be worked around by manually unlimbering and allocating support units
AI protecting Artillery could be cut down AI for demo - so not a problem(I hope)
I think feedback from Corps about orders they dont want to accept should be given ... if this is the issue with not accepting orders
I do think the game has great potential, but the above problems definitely need to be ironed out, and possibly a second Demo released the day before the pre order date maybe.
It will be quick to test out the above bugs and see if they exist or not :-)
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I do think the game has great potential
100% agree.....it can be a best, no doubt, the basic idea, the layout, the 2d map, the information, the stats, the historic content, it's all top class, totaly super, BUT, in the demo it''s all let down by the stange things we are all chatting about......I so hope the AI in the demo IS a cut down version of the game and that something is missing, but I fear that is not the case.
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The AI in the demo is not the final AI, beta version has not a passive AI (it depends as JMM posted sometimes AI makes good plans sometimes she does not).
Tried a 6 Coorps battle AI vs AI and the 2 AIs made attacking Corps, defending ones and made a reserve Corp.
So ...as the intergalactic guide says...don't panic :)
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The AI in the demo is not the final AI
This is the best news today.......is this 100 percent confirmed true, no doubt whatsoever ?.
It explains a lot if so.
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The beta is still going... so every things all of you report from the demo can just be interesting for the Engine.
So there are weeks and days before final release and JMM is always patching, programming and so on.... so this demo is a good portrait of what HWLG is but absolutely the final game it is normal will have upgrades and tuned points ;)
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AI: You can tell by the setup in the tutorials that the AI is not there. In my opinion the demo was dummed down to release a demo. For me the demo is to use and get use to the GUI. I say we cut JMM some slack because a lot of people wanted a demo and so one was put together to INTRODUCE the game and nothing more. That is how I am approaching the demo: be it right or wrong, just a guide to become familiar with the interface, nothing more.
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AI: You can tell by the setup in the tutorials that the AI is not there. In my opinion the demo was dummed down to release a demo. For me the demo is to use and get use to the GUI. I say we cut JMM some slack because a lot of people wanted a demo and so one was put together to INTRODUCE the game and nothing more. That is how I am approaching the demo: be it right or wrong, just a guide to become familiar with the interface, nothing more.
Exactly, plus we can report some bugs and JMM will polish the game before the release.
I'm sure that we'ill have a more finished game than many other games on the market.
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Well, I think I'll wait to see a demo of the finished game. This is obviously a demo of an unfinished beta.
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This is the first demo that I have tried that was missing so many important elements like the AI.
We all knew the graphics were not the selling feature of this game - it was the gameplay itself.
With the Call of Duty demos, you played one complete level, with all the horns and whistles. That was the demo. It left you wanting more. This demo does not do that.
Many potential gamers will be turned off by this demo and will not buy the game.
For being in development for 2 years, yes this demo is very disapointing.
But I truely believe that JMM has an excellent game up his sleeve and when the full version comes out, we will not be disapointed!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Ok on another forum I think I may have found the answer.
I did not play the tutorials but jumped straight into the battle and the " missing " AI kicked my butt. Apparently the problems most people are seeing are in the tutorials. Maybe that is why I saw none of the problems that are being reported.
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The fact that the demo has issues is nothing new, I'll buy the game anyway, I know that these issues will get sorted, this is not some greedy Corporation here, it’s a guy that’s dedicated a substantial amount of his life to this game and jumping up and down about the demo is not going to help, either show a bit of maturity or go back to ETW, its unbelievable how predictable the internet community can be.
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I did not play the tutorials but jumped straight into the battle and the " missing " AI kicked my butt. Apparently the problems most people are seeing are in the tutorials. Maybe that is why I saw none of the problems that are being reported.
Hmmm, I've played mostly the battle, that's where I have seen most of the AI "funny" stuff happening.....but we need not worry if the game has a differnt AI to the demo.
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Regarding Grand Tactica AI in the version the testers have now (that will be upgraded more) here i enclose a picture regarding an AI plan... i did nothing just opened a battle and activated the Grand Tactical AI, here you can see the French Plan.
Absolutely i did nothing just activated the AI. :)
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I was expecting a demo that showed why I should buy the game. Not a open beta that seems to have been thrown together without any testing just to keep a deadline.
At least it showed the basic concepts of how to command an army and that looks nice but OTOH we already knew how it would be like from videos.
I have no problems with the graphics, there could always be a few tweaks with for example the smoke, but all in all nothing that would prevent me from enjoying the game.
What I did not expect was a combat and morale system that appears to be rather abstract: either a whole regiment fight as one or rout as one, yes even gets captured as one. And with Line regiments routing at just 5%, or whatever low value it is, it makes me want to stay away from the 3D map and just focus on the 2D map because combat is rather ugly to watch.
I'd have to install the game again to be sure, but IIRC Fields of Glory from '94 also used regiments while later games based on Sid Meier's engine or Take Command uses battalions for combat/morale.
So even assuming all the bugs are cleared out, overall LG is a bit of a letdown as I expected more from this game.
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Regarding Grand Tactical AI in the version the testers have now...
Your screen says "Tactical Plan" where ours says "Normal". Is there a special way to activate that in our version, or is that something totally new that we don't have yet?
Things are looking good.
Hook
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I was expecting a demo that showed why I should buy the game. Not an open beta that seems to have been thrown together without any testing just to keep a deadline.
You were expecting a standard commercial game. Forget everything you know about commercially produced games; this is a whole different kind of animal. It's exactly like having your friend who lives down the street make a game in his spare time, with no outside help and no one paying him a salary to do it.
If that doesn't shed enough light on the process, then you might try making your own game. If you start now, you can have a Waterloo game by the time the 200th anniversary of the battle rolls around.
Hook
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I don't see why. They have no big and mean SEGA who needs a release to fit the fiscal year as we saw with ETW. There was nothing that prevented them from testing this demo before releasing it. The issues are so obvious that even a few hours of testing would have shown it.
Instead we saw a hasty release that is now getting a lot of heat on various forums. All for the sake of keeping up with a deadline.
edit: and no I don't make my own games but have been involved in mods for total war games. My stuff never went public without internal testing.
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Some people who would never have liked this game, no matter what, are having a fine old time saying it's no good, if the demo had been better that might not have happened, so for me I would have to agree, the demo needed testing, then the problems would have been seen and we would have had to wait a bit longer......as we might have to now anyway, but at least the "reputation" would not have suffered in some forums as it appears to have done now, a pity.
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I suppose I would have to agree that the demo needed testing.
BUT.... I think (and I am only guessing) there was a lot of expectations not to miss another deadline and people like me after, waiting so long and being giving severel missed deadlines, really wanted to see the game. I hope JMM just put 'something out there' and this is not an exact replica of what the full game is like? After running the Demo today I feel a bit more positive, I think I saw flashes of brilliance and felt for the first time the satisfaction of a plan set in motion!
(Crosses fingers).
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My original comments were a bit to hard and not really aimed at this forum that much. I had seen the demo getting blasted by people that obviously had not read the manual or tried to work with the demo at all. These were people who obviously thought that Age of Empires was a war or even a strategy game. They wanted total control of everything at once. When someone tried to explain giving orders and the lag time involved they thought it was just so stupid. I wish this had been a teenager forum but these were wargame forums.Sorry if I came out to harsh but I don't see the problems that are being reported and I'm in awe at watching an AI corps commander work compared to one in an HPS game.
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edit: and no I don't make my own games but have been involved in mods for total war games. My stuff never got went public without internal testing.
Your stuff wasn't 200,000 lines of code, either.
The game WAS tested. But with a small number of beta testers, eventually they all start doing things in a way that bypasses the bugs. It takes new testers to find that the old bugs are still there. That's what we're all doing now. Personally, I'd rather be part of this open beta that to wait another 6 months to a year to get anything at all.
Yeah, the demo is going to take a hit in certain circles because of problems. Those same people would have bashed the game no matter what because the graphics aren't modern enough, or that the interface isn't as nice as they'd like. They always find something.
We could argue about whether the demo should have been released in its current state, but there were political reasons for that, not because of some deadline. Since it WAS released, it's a moot point. Might as well make the most of it. I personally believe that a demo should be essentially bug-free, but we have a special case here.
Don't bash the beta testers. They've done a great job. Don't bash JMM either. He's giving us what might be the last serious Napoleonic game for a long time, if ever.
And you have to admit, when things are working right, the game is pretty exciting. Hang in there, it'll be done eventually.
Hook
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In the mean time JMM has admitted that the demo wasn't tested and that he probably made mistakes/ introduced new bugs while trying to meet his own deadline. The beta testers have said they're surprised to see the return of old bugs in the demo. If I understood JMM's post right, then there may even be a new demo.
I suppose any member of this forum is really interested in the game and will "hang in there" but if we as hardcore fans hold back opinions and stop pointing out issues, we might not get the game we want.
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Some people who would never have liked this game, no matter what, are having a fine old time saying it's no good, if the demo had been better that might not have happened, so for me I would have to agree, the demo needed testing, then the problems would have been seen and we would have had to wait a bit longer......as we might have to now anyway, but at least the "reputation" would not have suffered in some forums as it appears to have done now, a pity.
Which forums :?: ;)
I tried to explain this demo isn't really good because I built it with a big pressure... I have a heavy professional constraint during this week...
Right, I made a mistake... I uploaded this demo without test after building the install!
Now, it's like that, and my next task is to fix the bugs I added during the last 36 hours!
"Reputation" : I think I had a very bad reputation before; it's not my problem!
JMM
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I suppose any member of this forum is really interested in the game and will "hang in there" but if we as hardcore fans hold back opinions and stop pointing out issues, we might not get the game we want.
I agree completely. I just think there's a difference between constructive criticism and bashing the game, the developer, and the testers. :)
After all, JMM has a Wish List thread. And they really do need to hear about the bugs we find. When people start taking bugs in the demo as a personal insult, and respond in kind, then things don't go well.
Hook
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Right, I made a mistake... I uploaded this demo without test after building the install!
Now, it's like that, and my next task is to fix the bugs I added during the last 36 hours!
"Reputation" : I think I had a very bad reputation before; it's not my problem!
JMM, it doesn't matter. You could have tested it for a month and 5 minutes after the demo went online for download you would have discovered a major bug. It's like a law; there's nothing you can do about it. And people would still have found bugs.
As for your reputation, you will be known as the guy who made the first realistic Napoleonic wargame.
Hook
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And you have to admit, when things are working right, the game is pretty exciting.
The demo stopped working on both of my PC's so only had one full game. Apart from that and assuming all AI issues will be fixed I'm sure it can be considered a good grand tactical simulator. I expected more detail at the lower tactical end, that's all.
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I expected more detail at the lower tactical end, that's all.
I agree. That and the lack of feedback makes playing the demo frustrating.
You never know why units win, loose or rout.
I also can't see if terrain, formation, troop type or quality make any difference.
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Well... just played as Army commander 4 corps, I really enjoyed this one, no problems with units vanishing this time, all corps followed the orders i gave! :smile:
The music that the regimental band played was really good, wow just like being there one could say, and the artillery fire was really awesome! loud and gratifying, cavalry was sounding the charge. infantry lined up and fired volleys into the Austrian troops.
After A while ,several enemy battires where hit and set ablaze you could the palls of smoke swilling up into the sky :smile:
So all in all I think the Demo is a good start, yes there are things to address.....sure look at ETW still bugged to bits cant even load it LOL :lol:.....anyhow I for one support JMM and his team and will buy this game when most if not all bugs have been ironed out.
I think we ourselves have been our own worst enemy chassing JMM to complete this game come what may( myself included )....How ever things will be addressed and I have confidence in the Hist War team :smile:
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I agree. That and the lack of feedback makes playing the demo frustrating.
You never know why units win, loose or rout.
I have found this as well, it's hard to know why things are happening the way they are but I suspect as we get used to it some of things things will be become clearer, but some more information in the form of reports would be good.
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There is some information in the box at the bottom of the 2D screen, but you need to press I a few times to get it to stay long enough to read. It's not much, but it helps.
The worst thing about fighting a battle in the game is that you can't figure out what's happening and why. I'm hoping that will get better as we learn the interface.
Hook
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Well, I think most players understand the pressures JMM was under to produce this demo. He rushed it out to keep people happy.
I do think it is helpful that players point out any bugs they find. Some aren't bugs at all and this is where others step in and explain what is happening. I did a quick read of the various threads here and picked up some great advice. I suggest others do the same to overcome some of the problems encounted so far.
My personal view is, you have done well JMM to get this far with your dream. Stick at it and we will support your efforts when the final version is released.