HistWar

HistWar (English zone) => General discussions => Discussion démarrée par: Darsh le 06 décembre 2009, 15:37:00 pm

Titre: Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Darsh le 06 décembre 2009, 15:37:00 pm
Yes, I could wait if it will give a little more time for JMM to polish the game
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: ArtVandelay le 06 décembre 2009, 16:48:38 pm
Citation de: Maréchal_Darsh le 06 décembre 2009, 15:37:00 pm
Yes, I could wait if it will give a little more time for JMM to polish the game


Honestly, I'd like the game now. I'll wait for updates, but I'd really like to have all the features.
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Gunfreak le 06 décembre 2009, 16:54:26 pm
If I could get a new demo or a big patch for the one we got, I could wait,

But I prefer that JMM give a small patch that fixes the ai in this demo, then spend the rest of the time working on the main game
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: LNDavout le 06 décembre 2009, 17:22:33 pm
I go with Gunfreak.

But we can also have the full game and then work on it. Would be no problem for as long as i know the developers finish the game.

AND I TRUST JMM on this part !!!!!!!!!!!!
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: dippysea le 06 décembre 2009, 17:32:33 pm
How about release a kind of "open beta" with 3 fixed OOBs per side (1 small, 1 medium, 1 large) and the map editor for a £10 nominal charge - that gets us through Christmas

Then the chance to upgrade to the full version early next year with bugs ironed out.  Full OOB & Doctine editor etc

This also gives the community a chance to create maps to swap etc and gives JMM cash to pay for some elves to help in bug fixing :-)

Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: GrosPaul le 06 décembre 2009, 17:41:53 pm
Citation de: dippysea le 06 décembre 2009, 17:32:33 pm
How about release a kind of "open beta" with 3 fixed OOBs per side (1 small, 1 medium, 1 large) and the map editor for a £10 nominal charge - that gets us through Christmas

Then the chance to upgrade to the full version early next year with bugs ironed out.  Full OOB & Doctine editor etc

This also gives the community a chance to create maps to swap etc and gives JMM cash to pay for some elves to help in bug fixing :-)



Very good idea dippysea! This mean seems very constructive. I agree for £10 and even more: the amount of the pre-order (less book keeping for the countable).
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Cpl Steiner le 06 décembre 2009, 17:49:15 pm
Call me a cynic but in this cut-throat world of software development I really don't think it's such a big problem to release a buggy game. JMM should release the game for the full price right away and get some rewards for all his hard work. If it doesn't work 100% as advertised straight away, so what! We will all have the game to play with, JMM will have some hard-earned cash, and he can iron out the bugs later with the help of the community built up on this website.
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: dippysea le 06 décembre 2009, 17:59:45 pm
To be honest even £20 or £25 would be acceptable.  As long as the purchaser knows it has issues at the moment people wont spend money and be disappointed.  They will be happy to wait.

By then saying within 3 months £20 or £15 is payable for the full version would keep a good reputation with the gaming community.

It means that the true die hard fans can play the game and are willing to pay out cash for a game they know has potential.  It allows the community to build OOBs, doctrines and maps for the full version etc

The dabblers will wait until a full blown game is released without any bugs and will already have a firm base of scenarios to play on

JMM will make future money by adding more features after the main release, and increase Division control and orders, better AI etc.  The community carry on building battles and a base for the fiture enhancements.
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Petrus58 le 06 décembre 2009, 18:12:07 pm
Citation de: Cpl Steiner le 06 décembre 2009, 17:49:15 pm
Call me a cynic but in this cut-throat world of software development I really don't think it's such a big problem to release a buggy game. JMM should release the game for the full price right away and get some rewards for all his hard work. If it doesn't work 100% as advertised straight away, so what! We will all have the game to play with, JMM will have some hard-earned cash, and he can iron out the bugs later with the help of the community built up on this website.

I agree. I can't think of a single game I have bought that hasn't had issues - many of them a great many issues (eg ETW !). In addition, by hitting his deadlines for both demo and game, JMM will be sending out a strong message about the game and its future.
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: GrosPaul le 06 décembre 2009, 18:24:35 pm
Dippysea and Petrus58, I agree with both of you. Maybe the Dippysea's idea is more flexible???

Could we have a thought moved for those who died during these 7 years. I wish to not be amongst those, if I have to wait the release for yet others years  ;).
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Gunfreak le 06 décembre 2009, 18:41:27 pm
Citation de: dippysea le 06 décembre 2009, 17:32:33 pm
How about release a kind of "open beta" with 3 fixed OOBs per side (1 small, 1 medium, 1 large) and the map editor for a £10 nominal charge - that gets us through Christmas

Then the chance to upgrade to the full version early next year with bugs ironed out.  Full OOB & Doctine editor etc

This also gives the community a chance to create maps to swap etc and gives JMM cash to pay for some elves to help in bug fixing :-)



That will take longer then finishing the game, he would have to make it's own build ect. to make a open beta like that would probebly take 6 months, if he starts two day, just see how much problems we got with the demo, and that was tiny compeard to what you sugest.
A beta like that can't just be made, it would have to be planed long before it gets relased.

I would rather see JMM doing the game and get it out some time this winter, then waiting 6 months for a beta then another 6 months for the game
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: englishoo7 le 06 décembre 2009, 18:46:29 pm
I can't believe I am saying this but - for me - If the issues I discussed in the thread 'Firefights,' can be sorted, I would say wait until they are! Infantry units cannot at this moment organise themselves into a plausable firefight. The importance of these sorts of bugs cannot be underestimated. I am convinced that 'Joe public' seeing the sort of behaviour (misaligned, jumpy changes of deployment, missing the enemy unit, often routing before ever firing a shot) in a demo would not buy the game. JMM would lose a lot of money.
In short, if the important buggy issues can be sorted then release it with a few less important ones. If not (takes a deep breath) Don't.
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Bruguière le 06 décembre 2009, 18:54:03 pm
 Waiting for a perfect game !!!! ;)
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Cpl Steiner le 06 décembre 2009, 19:24:07 pm
Citation de: englishoo7 le 06 décembre 2009, 18:46:29 pm
I can't believe I am saying this but - for me - If the issues I discussed in the thread 'Firefights,' can be sorted, I would say wait until they are!

JMM has had, what, 7 years to get this right? I think a lot of people on this forum need to take a reality check and lower their expectations for the game and accept that some of these issues may never be completely resolved. It does scare me a bit when I see these sorts of glitchy behaviours for a game that has been in development for so long. Surely JMM would have had them nailed in about the first year?

I will buy the game and hope it is released sooner rather than later but I am lowering my expectations of what it will eventually be. I think it is a nice niche Napoleonics game but it may never be a "classic". But that's OK too.
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Gunner24 le 06 décembre 2009, 20:09:21 pm
The game has been in beta test stage for age's already, JMM has said there is stuff wrong with the demo that is not, or will not be, wrong in the full game, so as long as that's correct then the full game may as well be released asap - if it still has bugs then we have to wait for a patch to fix them, nothing unusual there from my experience.

From a selfish point of view I'm not bothered about a new demo, I'm not that interested in SP play so a "better" demo is not important to me, but it might be very important be to get others convinced that the full game will work - that would be time well spent if a better demo increased sales.
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Franciscus le 06 décembre 2009, 20:11:54 pm
Citation de: Petrus58 le 06 décembre 2009, 18:12:07 pm
I agree. I can't think of a single game I have bought that hasn't had issues - many of them a great many issues (eg ETW !). In addition, by hitting his deadlines for both demo and game, JMM will be sending out a strong message about the game and its future.

+1, emphatically.

If at all possible, public deadlines should be kept. If not, marketing wise it could be a disaster - specially after the --------- debacle. If the game gets pushed another year, it maybe the end of it. We have been this road before, in 2005 and 2007. Not again! IMHO this kind of debate does no good service to JMM.
No game is perfect. No matter what JMM does, the game when released WILL have bugs !

Now is the time for initiative. As Napoleon would say, bugs can always be patched, but time is lost forever  :mrgreen:
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: ezjax le 06 décembre 2009, 20:14:40 pm
I can wait don't have money to buy anyway. :shock:
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Petrus58 le 06 décembre 2009, 20:19:44 pm
Another advantage of releasing The Game sooner rather than months, or perhaps even longer down the line is that I am sure there are modders itching to get to work! There are a number of games I can think of where modders helped to fix issues, and the games in question are still widely played. This is a very complex game, and expecting one man (with help from beta testing of course) to bring it to a state where most / all are satisfied seems, well, very tough on JMM.
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Hook le 06 décembre 2009, 20:39:52 pm
Note:  This is a reply to Cpl Steiner's comment that JMM has had 7 years already.

There's a huge amount of stuff in this game, and we've only seen a part of it.  There's a map editor, an OOB editor, a doctrine editor, and lots of stuff that's not in the demo.  Multiplayer, for example.  JMM's done an incredible amount of work considering it's just him.  

Right now he's fixing bugs we've found in the demo and working on a few things that aren't quite finished... the Grand Tactical AI for example.  Imagine what will happen when the AI gives more orders than just the initial battle plan.

A lot of the things people are complaining about are the game working as designed.  Things will get better as people learn how to do more stuff in the game.  There *are* bugs in the game, but from what I've seen they are minor enough not to effect play.   Just because some units aren't doing what you want doesn't mean it's a bug.  

Some bugs I've seen:

Sometimes units will face 90 degrees from the unit they're firing on.  They're still getting target effect, so right now it's mostly visual and I'm sure it will be fixed.

Units vanish for no apparent good reason.  These units are marked Destroyed in the Regiment screen, and they've taken some damage.  This happens to 1 to 3 units in every Montebello battle I've fought, and a lot more in the tutorial battles.  Probably has to do with artillery shooting them.  While it seems to be a bug, there's no effect on game play if the units are actually destroyed.  This behavior may be intentional.

The game will lock up if you get too close to certain parts of the map edge.

There may be other bugs, but those are the ones I've noticed.  

A lot of things are the game working as designed, but not what the player expects to happen, and often not what the player wants.  I'm sure some of these will be tweaked.  Artillery is probably too powerful.  Sometimes units will sit and look at each other, doing nothing... neither wants to attack.  This usually resolves itself after a bit, generally with the help of artillery.  Attacks don't seem as coordinated as we expect, although I suspect the real battlefield was just like that.  No, it doesn't look like popular paintings of the era.  Units don't always follow orders, because the local commander has a mind of his own.  These things need to be reported, but don't assume they're all bugs.

I'd buy the game, right now, as is, unfinished and with whatever bugs are there, and be happy to wait for JMM to fix stuff and finish it in patches.  But the game can't be released yet because too many people are somewhat less understanding.  If a game isn't complete and mostly bug-free out of the box, they'll generate lots of negative publicity.  

If you want to see what kind of a nightmare releasing an unfinished game can generate, look at Battlecruiser 3000 AD.  The publisher forced a release when it was far from finished, and that generated intense amounts of nastiness on USENET.  There was a small group who played the game and liked it, everyone else bashed the developer, who didn't handle it very well.  Eventually he finished the game and released it for free.  We don't want a repeat of this.

Hang in there.  We've got a great game already, and it will only get better.

Hook
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Vorontsov le 06 décembre 2009, 21:16:01 pm
I think this 'bugs' need to be fixed.
1. Artillery is too powerful
2. Regiments cant coordinate attack (each regiment attack alone without support for uknown reason)
3. Strange regiments behavor as notaced before in many posts ( attack from 1000m, staying before enemy about 50m and do nothing, marching around enemy regiment etc)
4. Suicidal behavor cavalry regiments (frontal attack on enemy artilery, rallying near enemy cannons then rout as result)
5. Escape from the battle fresh and sligtly weakened regiments (sometime).
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Barbaronzon le 06 décembre 2009, 21:30:55 pm
Here would be my idea to give JMM some help identifying issues and get a game into our hands that works right.

How about JMM opens preorders and everybody that preorders basically gets beta versions of the game until the release is avaailable? This would supply a big base of different hardware for JMM to test and a lot more feedback. Also JMM would recover some money for his hard work and it might help with further development...

Just my 5 cents.
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Petrus58 le 06 décembre 2009, 21:34:48 pm
Citation de: Barbaronzon le 06 décembre 2009, 21:30:55 pm
Here would be my idea to give JMM some help identifying issues and get a game into our hands that works right.

How about JMM opens preorders and everybody that preorders basically gets beta versions of the game until the release is avaailable? This would supply a big base of different hardware for JMM to test and a lot more feedback. Also JMM would recover some money for his hard work and it might help with further development...

Just my 5 cents.

A good idea - I would be happy to pay and help with feedback, understanding that this would in effect be an open beta.
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Franciscus le 06 décembre 2009, 21:35:06 pm
Citation de: Barbaronzon le 06 décembre 2009, 21:30:55 pm
Here would be my idea to give JMM some help identifying issues and get a game into our hands that works right.

How about JMM opens preorders and everybody that preorders basically gets beta versions of the game until the release is avaailable? This would supply a big base of different hardware for JMM to test and a lot more feedback. Also JMM would recover some money for his hard work and it might help with further development...

Just my 5 cents.

Good idea.

Further delays would be absurd, specially after PC4War review (not a preview) with a 9/10  :!: If the reviewer was not bribed  ;), he certainly saw something we are not seeing in the demo.
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: GrosPaul le 06 décembre 2009, 21:36:42 pm
Citation de: Barbaronzon le 06 décembre 2009, 21:30:55 pm
Here would be my idea to give JMM some help identifying issues and get a game into our hands that works right.

How about JMM opens preorders and everybody that preorders basically gets beta versions of the game until the release is avaailable? This would supply a big base of different hardware for JMM to test and a lot more feedback. Also JMM would recover some money for his hard work and it might help with further development...

Just my 5 cents.

Excellent !!
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Barbaronzon le 06 décembre 2009, 21:43:51 pm
Citation de: Franciscus le 06 décembre 2009, 21:35:06 pm
Good idea.

Further delays would be absurd, specially after PC4War review (not a preview) with a 9/10  :!: If the reviewer was not bribed  ;), he certainly saw something we are not seeing in the demo.


I like the demo, I wouldn't give it a 8/10 but I for sure see a lot of potential. Thats why I think my suggestion is good because it would give a lot of feedback on multiplayer issues etc. Look how much replies with issues there where to the beta just based on different video configs that the beta team might not have seen so far.

And since hardware testing on windows is a pain (I know I am a software developer :)) widening the base would be IMHO just simply a smart move.
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Pariente le 06 décembre 2009, 21:57:27 pm
Citation de: Vorontsov le 06 décembre 2009, 21:16:01 pm
I think this 'bugs' need to be fixed.
1. Artillery is too powerful
2. Regiments cant coordinate attack (each regiment attack alone without support for uknown reason)
3. Strange regiments behavor as notaced before in many posts ( attack from 1000m, staying before enemy about 50m and do nothing, marching around enemy regiment etc)
4. Suicidal behavor cavalry regiments (frontal attack on enemy artilery, rallying near enemy cannons then rout as result)
5. Escape from the battle fresh and sligtly weakened regiments (sometime).

1) Artillery is as powerful as it used to be during Napoleonic wars.
2) Communication between regiments was very difficult and coordination is the real issue you have to face in a battle simulation.
4) Ah ! Cavalry ! Drunk with glory and wine. Initiative is very important ; if a commander has a high initiative he may charge without order :
« A unit with a High level of initiative will respond more quickly to the
changing nature of the battle. So it is possible that the unit will take it upon itself to deal with an
enemy unit in difficulty or decide to leave its own pieces of artillery
behind it if they are preventing it from executing a rapid manoeuvre
over difficult terrain. » (Manual, book 2, page 12).
5) Manual, book 2, page 10 :

TypeClassOverall lossesTheoretical number of engagements
InfantryGuard425
InfantryElite284
InfantryHeavy264
InfantryLight244
InfantryLine214
InfantryMilitia15~203~4

What was the class of your infantry unit ?

Regiments of 8 fellows in a field are TW waxing lyrical. :mrgreen:
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Duke of Earl le 06 décembre 2009, 22:24:08 pm
Bonjour Messieurs,

I must confess, I am a WNLB, LGAA and ANGV veteran (as some of you may already know)   ;) ....

I am satisfied that when ALL the parts are present, LGHW will function properly as intended .... it is the Real McCoy  8) ....

For now, having put in a good bit of practice with Montebello, I am happy with what I see .... :D

However, a better Demo is very much needed for the general public (to show its TOTAL AWESOMENESS ).... ;)

There are some MINOR bugs/limitations I hope get fixed in the future (game freeze when camera approaches baggage train  - artillery crews misaligned with cannon - 3D camera needs to go higher - local sound zone problems - smoke effects - no concise HotKey List,  etc.. )  :p ....

But, I enjoy this Demo release and have fun nevertheless  :smile: ....

And, there are always new mysteries (?) to unravel (i.e. why does single Voltigeur always run between battalions?)  :?: ....

All I can say is this: Whoever masters the LGHW concepts will be a very POWERFUL opponent indeed, so I hope it's ME!  :lol: ....

Cordialement, DoE


Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Barbaronzon le 06 décembre 2009, 22:55:13 pm
Citation de: Vorontsov le 06 décembre 2009, 21:16:01 pm
I think this 'bugs' need to be fixed.
1. Artillery is too powerful
2. Regiments cant coordinate attack (each regiment attack alone without support for uknown reason)
3. Strange regiments behavor as notaced before in many posts ( attack from 1000m, staying before enemy about 50m and do nothing, marching around enemy regiment etc)
4. Suicidal behavor cavalry regiments (frontal attack on enemy artilery, rallying near enemy cannons then rout as result)
5. Escape from the battle fresh and sligtly weakened regiments (sometime).

If you read articles about battles in this period of history, cavalary is known to have their own mind and do suicidal attacks, look at the battle of waterloo. Also there where a lot of issues with moral in many battles and soldiers running under the slightest pressure or even running before battles really started when they saw a chance. Artillery was devastating especially as the range got closer. So I am ok how it is in the game now. Note that many soldiers doing this time didn't really served on their own free will. I hope that some if this behaviour is actually in the game as it makes it historically accurate.

Coordination was also not what you expect on todays battlefields, you had smoke, commands where shouted over the noise of battle etc. So a certain amount of confusion is expected.
What part I agree with absolutely is no 3. The regimental and divisional behaviour needs some tweaking, The corps over all seem to do a decent job in implementing the plan.
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Hook le 06 décembre 2009, 23:14:42 pm
Citation de: Vorontsov le 06 décembre 2009, 21:16:01 pm
3. Strange regiments behavor as notaced before in many posts ( attack from 1000m, staying before enemy about 50m and do nothing, marching around enemy regiment etc)
4. Suicidal behavor cavalry regiments (frontal attack on enemy artilery, rallying near enemy cannons then rout as result)

You'll have to describe what you mean by "attack from 1000m".  For the others, watch the unit when you replay the video to see if you can figure out what's going on.  Sometimes it's obvious.  Screen shots won't hurt.

When cavalry goes near an enemy artillery unit, they're probably sending small groups to attack each gun crew.  Watch in the replay.

Hook
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Holdit le 06 décembre 2009, 23:39:11 pm
Citation de: Barbaronzon le 06 décembre 2009, 21:30:55 pm
Here would be my idea to give JMM some help identifying issues and get a game into our hands that works right.

How about JMM opens preorders and everybody that preorders basically gets beta versions of the game until the release is avaailable? This would supply a big base of different hardware for JMM to test and a lot more feedback. Also JMM would recover some money for his hard work and it might help with further development...

Just my 5 cents.

I do not intend to preorder with the game in the state that is suggested by the (current) demo. A proposal like the above, however, if implemented, might make me change my mind. I don't know if it's a good or bad idea, but I think it's definitely worthy of serious consideration.

Holdit
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Vorontsov le 06 décembre 2009, 23:41:53 pm
Citation de: Hook le 06 décembre 2009, 23:14:42 pm
You'll have to describe what you mean by "attack from 1000m". 


Ok. My corp deploying in defensive line away about 1000m from enemy. Suddenly one of my regiments start movement to enemy (with 'attack' status on units info box) in 'disordered' order, like a crowd graphically.
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Hook le 06 décembre 2009, 23:57:33 pm
The "attack" status in the unit info box should be "Unit engaged" instead.  It's a mis-tranlation.

Edit to add:  I've had the occasional infantry unit march *through* the heavily engaged enemy lines and continue on toward the final deployment line for the corps.  While this seems decidedly odd, it's useful because that infantry can seek out the enemy line of operation, which often isn't defended.  Yet another reason to keep reserves. :)

He got through the enemy lines because the enemy were already busy fighting other of my units and he had no one to attack.  He was just following orders, in this case to advance to the final deployment line.

Hook
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Holdit le 07 décembre 2009, 00:00:29 am
Citation de: Barbaronzon le 06 décembre 2009, 22:55:13 pm
If you read articles about battles in this period of history, cavalary is known to have their own mind and do suicidal attacks, look at the battle of waterloo.

I can't speak for other people's experiences of the demo, but I've seen this behaviour apply to a single cavalry regiment going off on its own. To compare this situation with the unwise use of cavalry at Waterloo is to compare apples with oranges. If we look at the Union Brigade's attack against I Corps we see that:


So this is no way comparable to a single regiment mounting a unwished-for charge off its own bat. The fact that this is what happened after the initial success of the Union Brigade doesn't alter this. In fact, if a feature of the game was that British cavalry were to tend to carry successful charges too far, I'd be delighted, because this would tally with the historical accounts. A single regiment mounting an unprovoked, unordered charge against an intact enemy line isn't something I've ever read about. If such an accounts do exist, I'd like hear about them.

To continue with the Waterloo comparison, if we look at the French massed cavalry attack we see that:


Again, not the same thing at all.

Citer
Coordination was also not what you expect on todays battlefields, you had smoke, commands where shouted over the noise of battle etc. So a certain amount of confusion is expected.

Granted , but I don't think it was quite so bad as to produce the kind of confusion that players are reporting here. Again, if the accounts confirm it to be so, I'd be grateful for some references to check out.

Holdit
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Barbaronzon le 07 décembre 2009, 00:16:45 am
Citation de: Holdit le 07 décembre 2009, 00:00:29 am
I can't speak for other people's experiences of the demo, but I've seen this behaviour apply to a single cavalry regiment going off on its own. To compare this situation with the unwise use of cavalry at Waterloo is to compare apples with oranges.

....

Granted , but I don't think it was quite so bad as to produce the kind of confusion that players are reporting here. Again, if the accounts confirm it to be so, I'd be grateful for some references to check out.

I agree that cavalary behaves at times rather crazy. My point was mainly that certain unexpected things are expected at this period of time. Anyhow Waterloo brings up something that seems to be missing in the game and maybe JMM consider adding it in the future. Without a lot of micromanagement it does not seem to be possible to form like a coordinated cavalary counter attack for example (as in waterloo). It would be really cool IMHO if you could select for example multiple cavalary units and give them orders like for a corps, basically charge a position etc. Right now if you detach them to do something like that they are under the HQ control but don't seem to have any coordination capabilities.
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Hook le 07 décembre 2009, 00:24:26 am
Citer
It was highly successful in its mission: to break up the I Corps attack.

Actually, I Corps had already won that battle, driving most of the defenders from the ridge.  The cavalry attack was a counterattack.  This is not mentioned in English language accounts.

I'd prefer that my cavalry stay in a support role, scouting (and then returning to the friendly lines instead of attacking anything in sight), defending my corps against enemy cavalry, forcing the enemy infantry into square for my artillery and infantry to deal with, charging weakened enemy infantry as necessary, dealing with enemy artillery units, and occasionally pursuing routing troops (to capture prisoners).  

However, I got the Guard Cossacks inside my own formations once and had the devil's own time dealing with them.  Cossacks liked to do things like that.  These guys don't quit the field until they're down to 135 troopers.

Hook
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Holdit le 07 décembre 2009, 00:25:31 am
Citation de: Pariente le 06 décembre 2009, 21:57:27 pm
1) Artillery is as powerful as it used to be during Napoleonic wars.

I get the impression that artillery is too powerful against infantry and cavalry, but I'm in no doubt that it's too powerful against other artillery. In game after game I've seen artillery batteries wipe each other out with an ease which would make Wellington's ban on counter-battery fire seem insane.

Holdit
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Holdit le 07 décembre 2009, 00:37:41 am
Citation de: Hook le 07 décembre 2009, 00:24:26 am
Actually, I Corps had already won that battle, driving most of the defenders from the ridge.  The cavalry attack was a counterattack.  This is not mentioned in English language accounts.

Exactly.

Citer
I'd prefer that my cavalry stay in a support role, scouting (and then returning to the friendly lines instead of attacking anything in sight), defending my corps against enemy cavalry, forcing the enemy infantry into square for my artillery and infantry to deal with, charging weakened enemy infantry as necessary, dealing with enemy artillery units, and occasionally pursuing routing troops (to capture prisoners).  

Me too.

Citer
However, I got the Guard Cossacks inside my own formations once and had the devil's own time dealing with them.  Cossacks liked to do things like that.  These guys don't quit the field until they're down to 135 troopers.

Well, that depends on which cossacks you're talking about. Guard cossacks may have been made of sterner stuff and, if I remember correctly, were organised along more regular lines, but your common or garden cossacks were very risk-averse, being notoriously hesitant about charging home, except where they had an overwhelming advantage.

Holdit
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Hook le 07 décembre 2009, 01:26:47 am
Citation de: Holdit le 07 décembre 2009, 00:37:41 am
...but your common or garden cossacks were very risk-averse, being notoriously hesitant about charging home, except where they had an overwhelming advantage.

Who wrote that?  It sounds like a British quote.  British authors tend to downplay anything about other troops, even their allies.  Especially their allies, in the case of the Dutch. 

Everything I've read says that your common garden variety cossacks were quite dangerous, mainly due their nature as irregular troops.  While more professional cavalry does things in a predictable manner, these guys might do anything.  They didn't use line formations, but tended to use a "swarm" formation.  By the time professional cavalry had finished dressing their lines in preparation to begin a charge, cossacks would be on top of you already.

Fear them.

Hook
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: MoonDog le 07 décembre 2009, 03:16:02 am
Good idea Barbaronzon,
 I too would be willing to purchase an open beta to help things along.
Why not pay the full 50 Euros up front?
Also there could be with an option to buy the manual at cost price delivered to your door.

M
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Barbaronzon le 07 décembre 2009, 06:11:01 am
Citation de: MoonDog le 07 décembre 2009, 03:16:02 am
Good idea Barbaronzon,
 I too would be willing to purchase an open beta to help things along.
Why not pay the full 50 Euros up front?
Also there could be with an option to buy the manual at cost price delivered to your door.

M

Its the internet age :D I can handle a download only manual perfectly fine so it shouldn't delay it. It could be available for order seperate once the pinting is figured out. Personally I prefer online manuals so I would like i if the printed manuals where a seperate purchase, part of a deluxe edition or whatever :D

Like I mentioned the main point behind my idea was just like the beta showed there are things like the crashes based on the video resolution for example that the beta team has maybe not caught. So i figured a really big beta base would help with the testing. Also multiplayer code can be a pain in the butt to test, again a point for my idea i think.

Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Cpl Steiner le 07 décembre 2009, 09:23:48 am
Just release the whole damn game! Only then will we actually know for sure what state it's in. Oh, and by the way, that DOES mean waiting for the printed manual. All these half measures like open betas and separate printed manual purchase options will just overcomplicate things.

Get the manual done, then release the game.
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: LNDavout le 07 décembre 2009, 09:59:19 am
Citation de: Holdit le 07 décembre 2009, 00:25:31 am
I get the impression that artillery is too powerful against infantry and cavalry, but I'm in no doubt that it's too powerful against other artillery. In game after game I've seen artillery batteries wipe each other out with an ease which would make Wellington's ban on counter-battery fire seem insane.

Holdit

Holdit

Waterloo is a special battle with the Troops on the backside of the ridge. Wet ground.

Movemen for Artillery was close to be impossible.

Wel. was clever and did know that he would loose a direct Artillery battle and so he used it mainly out of sight to its firepower to the final volley to prevent a chage and that worked fine on that day. On a place like Wagram the Brits would have been destroyed in a short time with this strat.

War is not that easy that you can say something works always !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats why we play it !!!!
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: LegerDesOnheils le 07 décembre 2009, 10:02:34 am
Citation de: Barbaronzon le 06 décembre 2009, 21:30:55 pm
Here would be my idea to give JMM some help identifying issues and get a game into our hands that works right.

How about JMM opens preorders and everybody that preorders basically gets beta versions of the game until the release is avaailable? This would supply a big base of different hardware for JMM to test and a lot more feedback. Also JMM would recover some money for his hard work and it might help with further development...

Just my 5 cents.

I am very much in favor of Barbaronzon's cents (all five of them). Having had some time to play the solo mode of the demo in the weekend I'm already very pleased with the overall performance of the AI, especially on the grand tactical level. There are defenitely issues to be solved on various AI levels (surveying the battle I saw one of my own calvalry units marching off to the enemy line as prisoners, from the safety of its parent corps with no enemy units near!) but these are IMO not in the way of having an overal good battle experience knowing that these issues are being addressed in the meantime. We would benefit from a very structured way of listing player's found issues and categorizing them to facilitate JMM without swamping him. We would also have to filter out the real bugs from the doctrine and warfare protocols of that era that might be precieved as bugs.          
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: MoonDog le 07 décembre 2009, 16:17:41 pm
Personally I dont need a printed manual.
I have printed off the first two books and it cost me around less than 1 Euro. Most people have a printer and at this stage know about refilling their ink cartridges.
So why include a hard copy manual in a digital download?
Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Franciscus le 07 décembre 2009, 16:36:25 pm
Citation de: MoonDog le 07 décembre 2009, 16:17:41 pm
Personally I dont need a printed manual.
I have printed off the first two books and it cost me around less than 1 Euro. Most people have a printer and at this stage know about refilling their ink cartridges.
So why include a hard copy manual in a digital download?

+1

Unless of course JMM plans to start pre-order only when a CD version of the game can also be bought. Otherwise, no sense in waiting for a printed manual.
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Holdit le 07 décembre 2009, 21:43:51 pm
Citation de: Hook le 07 décembre 2009, 01:26:47 am
Who wrote that?  It sounds like a British quote.  British authors tend to downplay anything about other troops, even their allies.  Especially their allies, in the case of the Dutch. 

Everything I've read says that your common garden variety cossacks were quite dangerous, mainly due their nature as irregular troops.  While more professional cavalry does things in a predictable manner, these guys might do anything.  They didn't use line formations, but tended to use a "swarm" formation.  By the time professional cavalry had finished dressing their lines in preparation to begin a charge, cossacks would be on top of you already.

Fear them.

Hook


"The fabled cossacks, while present in great numbers in all Russian armies, were not battlefield cavalry. Primarily suited for skirmishing and raiding (...) they would more likely run from rather than deliver a charge against formed infantry or cavalry, much less artillery." - Bob Coggins (American)

"It is true that these [accounts of Russian strength] include about 10,000 cossacks, and 30,000 militia, whose role in the battle would be limited." - Adam Zamoyski (Polish)

"They were excellent at outpost work and reconnaissance; they could mount excellent ambushes, and were merciless in hunting down stragglers. In open combat, however, they did not prove particularly dangerous enemies." - Christopher Duffy (British)

"...if you keep up a bold front and are not intimidated by their deafening cries they will not press home the attack, but stop dead or fall back in orer to prepare a new charge. The moment the artillery starts up they make themselves scarce. Threaten them with a pistol or any kind of firearm and they will keep out of your way. They will never hold their ground or risk a personal combat unless they have odds in their favour of several to one." - General Dumonceau (French)

Holdit

Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: englishoo7 le 08 décembre 2009, 13:52:46 pm
The above post pretty much sums up what I have read about cossacks too.
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Franciscus le 08 décembre 2009, 16:55:54 pm
Regarding an eventual delay of the game release, for the time being the only "official" timetable was posted by JMM:

Citation de: JMM le 05 novembre 2009, 16:01:48 pm
The agreement between JMM and Battelfront is canceled.

HW:LH Manual will be consultable on November the 11th...
HW:LH Demo will be released before the end of this month...
HW:LG will be in pre-order on the first week of December...
HW:LG will be released before Christmas...

JMM

[Edit] Update English Version

Until JMM himself says that this is no longer valid, that's what I am expecting - although the first week of December has just passed by.
A delay might be chosen, in order to correct bugs. IMHO the only bug that really should not be present in the released game is the crashing/freezing on the map borders. CTD/freezing bugs are terrible. All the rest - graphic bugs, balancing acts with arty, etc - are inevitable, and no matter how many months or years the game is delayed, rest assured that they will be found by some players when it is finally released.
I can wait, of course. I have been waiting since 2005. Some folks around here have waited longer. Do not forget though that the longer the game is delayed, the more "dated" the graphics and specially the engine will be. Vista and 7 incompatibilities are to be expected (that's why self respecting gamers tend to keep with old XP, BTW), but further down the line the number of players with XP is sure to diminish, and the compatibility problems will only grow worse.
In the end, only JMM is responsible for his decisions and timings.

Until the final game is released, though, I would like to thank JMM very much for a fine free game - also known as LG demo - that will be even patched for free, it seems  :mrgreen:
Titre: Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Hook le 08 décembre 2009, 17:40:42 pm
Citation de: englishoo7 le 08 décembre 2009, 13:52:46 pm
The above post pretty much sums up what I have read about cossacks too.

What others are perceiving as weaknesses, I see as strengths.  The way I use cavalry on the battlefield, cossacks are perfect.  We still need some heavy cavalry for some tasks, but cossacks are good for everything else.

Expecting cossacks to act the same as regular cavalry is like expecting infantry skirmishers to do the job of line infantry. 

While your regular cavalry is bashing itself to death against enemy formations, cossacks are hanging back looking for easy prey, and eventually they find plenty of it.  When you find yourself with a sizable cavalry force that can't be used to attack formed enemy, you start looking for other ways to use them.  I've found many. :)

Hook


Titre: Re : Re : Another delay before to release the game?
Posté par: Holdit le 08 décembre 2009, 22:08:26 pm
Citation de: Hook le 08 décembre 2009, 17:40:42 pm
What others are perceiving as weaknesses, I see as strengths.  The way I use cavalry on the battlefield, cossacks are perfect.  We still need some heavy cavalry for some tasks, but cossacks are good for everything else.

Expecting cossacks to act the same as regular cavalry is like expecting infantry skirmishers to do the job of line infantry. 

While your regular cavalry is bashing itself to death against enemy formations, cossacks are hanging back looking for easy prey, and eventually they find plenty of it.  When you find yourself with a sizable cavalry force that can't be used to attack formed enemy, you start looking for other ways to use them.  I've found many. :)

Hook


It's not so much that they're being seen as weaknesses, just a recognition that you couldn't expect cossacks to be able to go toe-to-toe with line cavalry or good order infantry - even if they could be persuaded to. Hanging back looking for easy prey is a perfectly valid tactic, but cavalry was valued in this period for its shock value on the battlefield, of which cossacks didn't provide much.

By the way, infantry skirmishers could and did do the job of line infantry.

I've read somewhere that at Eylau the "easy prey" approach accounted for a quite a few French cuirassiers whose horses were blown (and presumably whose units were disordered) after charging. Take a look at where the cossacks were employed at Borodino or Eylau.

If as a commander I wanted a cavalry charge that's going to open a hole in the enemy line, then it's got to be led by the regular heavies. If, on the other hand, I want a screen on campaign, or I want routers ridden down, or an area reconnoitred, then I'd happily pick the cossacks.

Holdit