Auteur Sujet: Spy Glass/Massively Increased Zoom and CIC View Only Play In General  (Lu 185 fois)

Hors ligne Mr. Doran

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    Undoubtedly this has been brought up before but I think is worth bringing it up again. When playing from CIC view only much of the utility you may have from your vision is removed even if you are on an elevated position capable of over-watching the entire battlefield.  The primary reason for this of course is our lack of ability to look at the field through the means of any real magnification.

    The challenge of playing from CIC only then just boils down to essentially only looking at the 2D map displays for the entire game because they give a much higher resolution of information than your eyes could ever perceive. The biggest asset Scourge of War has over any other game is the ability to play from the commanders eye (known as HITS of course in Scourge) view yet still be relatively functional. The game gives you sufficient magnification to see fairly up to around 1.5km so your direct visual perception is not utterly crippled.

Even with a 1080p monitor and high model detail you basically only get eyeball perception at best with maximum zoom. If it wasn't for the enlarge flag feature via shift it would be difficult to tell if they were even enemy in the distance.


    Simultaneously, in Scourge you are forced to rely on your visual perception of the battlefield when using the harshest game-play settings. There are no detailed maps of the enemies position and in what quantities so you must rely on your spacial awareness. Even if we did have sufficient magnification in HW we can still easily sit comfortably on the 2D screens and let our aid de camps relay to us the disposition of the enemy forces.  What Scourge doesn't have and what HW does is the ability to give orders to large bodies utilizing a 2D map but a map that gives too much information I believe.

So I believe we must have two things amended for a proper CIC view/HITs experience:

  • We must be given fair magnification to a level that we can at least count enemy brigades and battalions probably up to a range of 2KM
  • There should be an additional optional choice to remove and or heavily reduce the amount of 2D/Sand-Table map markers on both the enemy side and friendly side. This would significantly increase the players dependence on sight and written reports while also forcing him to build the image of the battlefield for himself. We already have drawing tools in game that can be utilized for this very task 

If you are to be forced to play from the view of the CIC you really should be forced to see and act through his eyes. On a side note, moving your HQ


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Re : Spy Glass/Massively Increased Zoom and CIC View Only Play In General
« Réponse #1 le: 14 août 2019, 15:24:13 pm »
Yes Yes and Yes again.
I briefly tried SoW but chiefly started with Histwar developer.
and there was discussion over what is actually visible at what distance, and if there is lots of rolling
hills in the way, what information can be gathered. Generally speaking if there is columns marching on
your flank in Histwar, and you can't see them (fog of war) you'll notice the threat level on the closest unit
on the extreme flank of your line, as an indicator and a 'dead giveaway'.

As for the HiTs question and or cycle between commanders, the AI architecture in Histwar left that out
as in the chain of command AI transition and messages leave commanders and CinC freely, with the
bonus of capture of messengers which adds delay and confusion.
I like that feature in SoW,  as well as the HiTs feature and should be the feature to train new players for a taste
of black powder wargaming.
My thoughts at one time on Histwar  was asking the developer to create a campaign system style
game where the Corps features supreme, and stop the development of it over a 3D  environment considering
that no one hardly plans and fights over the 3D map, more a flyover to check the images, and watch the
battle at the end, when the fighting is done: the regimental fighting is a feature but you best don't take control
away from the AI for too long: in the end it will be worse off.
Brigade level control would expand the experience, and as you pointed out as well in NTW mod, a support mechanism between regiments with a good % of reserve.

Best Regards Doran

`` Non ridere, non lugere, neque detestari, sed inteligere``
Spinoza

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Re : Spy Glass/Massively Increased Zoom and CIC View Only Play In General
« Réponse #2 le: 16 août 2019, 19:55:55 pm »
...
Simultaneously, in Scourge you are forced to rely on your visual perception of the battlefield when using the harshest game-play settings. There are no detailed maps of the enemies position and in what quantities so you must rely on your spacial awareness. Even if we did have sufficient magnification in HW we can still easily sit comfortably on the 2D screens and let our aid de camps relay to us the disposition of the enemy forces.  What Scourge doesn't have and what HW does is the ability to give orders to large bodies utilizing a 2D map but a map that gives too much information I believe.
...
If you are to be forced to play from the view of the CIC you really should be forced to see and act through his eyes. On a side note, moving your HQ

No doubt to agree to the last point.

"Simultaneously, in Scourge you are forced to rely on your visual perception of the battlefield when using the harshest game-play settings. There are no detailed maps of the enemies position and in what quantities so you must rely on your spacial awareness."

... which is great and absolutely manageable with a certain practice and experience.

"What Scourge doesn't have and what HW does is the ability to give orders to large bodies utilizing a 2D map but a map that gives too much information I believe."

Suggesting that I understood your point correctly, I have to strongly disagree.
I dont know about the vanilla version, but at least our MOD allows very detailed orders to give subordinates (that includes AI controlled formations up to corps level) with the 2D command map. I assume its also possible in the vanilla version. If known how the mechanics and stances work, SoW has a fantastic AI engine, that allows AIs to compete even with human opponents.
On the command map commanders can set the target for the subordinate and his unit and give waypoints if desired. Additional commands from the interface can set the facing and formation on arrival, usage of roads or marching offroad, moving speed, stances of corps and each subordinated divsional, BDE and regiment commanders; etc. .

« Modifié: Hier à 01:23:22 par sandman »

Hors ligne Mr. Doran

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Suggesting that I understood your point correctly, I have to strongly disagree.
I dont know about the vanilla version, but at least our MOD allows very detailed orders to give subordinates (that includes AI controlled formations up to corps level) with the 2D command map. I assume its also possible in the vanilla version. If known how the mechanics and stances work, SoW has a fantastic AI engine, that allows AIs to compete even with human opponents.
On the command map commanders can set the target for the subordinate and his unit and give waypoints if desired. Additional commands from the interface can set the facing and formation on arrival, usage of roads or marching offroad, moving speed, stances of corps and each subordinated divsional, BDE and regiment commanders; etc. .



I am not saying we should not be able to give detailed dispatches in 2D. I am saying that we should not get the quite frankly absurd amount of information printed on any of the maps if there is to be a true CIC/HITS experience. The moment you are able to access the level of information we have in our 2D environment currently in HW is the moment you can essentially just play the game in 2D. You are not required not build a spatial awareness of the battle-space because either your aide-de-camps do it for you or anything you see in the 3D environment is essentially instantly transferred to the 2d environment in real-time, again meaning the player is not realistically forced to use the 3D environment.

I digress by reiterating my two requirements to give the same level of CIC experience Scourge can achieve to HW.

1). We need better magnification our of surroundings for the 3D environment to actually be viable to begin with. The images we see are way too low resolution to be of any real use outside of almost point blank range. Identification and counting of battalions should be possible at ranges of at least two kilometers. You should not have the amount of battalions and regiments conveniently counted, tracked, and plotted for you in the 2D environment.

2). The amount of information we have access to in the 2D environments needs to be  limited enough so that the use of the 3D environment for  observation, orientation, and possible disorientation is actually necessary.  We need less enemy information, less friendly information so you have to judge where your forces are relative to your 3D perspective, and to of course be spending less time in 2D to begin with. Giving detailed dispatches is fine. Being able to play the game from essentially 2D only when doing CIC/HITs is not fine and pretty much the antithesis of the experience.

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I am not saying we should not be able to give detailed dispatches in 2D. I am saying that we should not get the quite frankly absurd amount of information printed on any of the maps if there is to be a true CIC/HITS experience. The moment you are able to access the level of information we have in our 2D environment currently in HW is the moment you can essentially just play the game in 2D. You are not required not build a spatial awareness of the battle-space because either your aide-de-camps do it for you or anything you see in the 3D environment is essentially instantly transferred to the 2d environment in real-time, again meaning the player is not realistically forced to use the 3D environment.

I digress by reiterating my two requirements to give the same level of CIC experience Scourge can achieve to HW.

1). We need better magnification our of surroundings for the 3D environment to actually be viable to begin with. The images we see are way too low resolution to be of any real use outside of almost point blank range. Identification and counting of battalions should be possible at ranges of at least two kilometers. You should not have the amount of battalions and regiments conveniently counted, tracked, and plotted for you in the 2D environment.

2). The amount of information we have access to in the 2D environments needs to be  limited enough so that the use of the 3D environment for  observation, orientation, and possible disorientation is actually necessary.  We need less enemy information, less friendly information so you have to judge where your forces are relative to your 3D perspective, and to of course be spending less time in 2D to begin with. Giving detailed dispatches is fine. Being able to play the game from essentially 2D only when doing CIC/HITs is not fine and pretty much the antithesis of the experience.


There wasnt a dissent about those matters.
When holding our Scourge of War Waterloo Multiplayer sessions, we only use HITS (1st person view) and completly bare maps.

I disagreed your following statement and I explained why:

"What Scourge doesn't have and what HW does is the ability to give orders to large bodies utilizing a 2D map..."

In SoW the player can give orders up to corps level using a 2D map (details in my previous posting).
« Modifié: Hier à 10:04:46 par sandman »